[CoffeeFiend]

JorgeA, on 11 May 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

The Desktop buttons, checkboxes, scroll bar, and spinner are all taking on the flat Metro look in the Windows 8 Release Preview

Wow. Just when it thought it couldn't possibly get any worse...

[JorgeA]

Catching up on my podcasts, I came across the following exchange in "Security Now!" with Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte. CoffeeFiend may find it especially interesting, as he's suggested that, post-Windows, Apple would be his first choice. (Emphasis added.)

Quote

Steve: ...And I did pick up a little security news that Apple has postponed their enforcement of app sandboxing, iOS app sandboxing. So Touch, Phone, and iPad. It was going to go into effect around now, but they're moving it back to March 1st and then saying we're not moving it again. Now, the problem is that this is - it's a mixed blessing. It is an enhancement to the security of iOS and of all iOS apps at the inevitable cost of features. So developers are not happy and have not been implementing Apple's sandboxing because it is restricting. It's restrictive and restricting some things that they would like to be able to do, reaching out of their own file system zone in order to --

Leo: It's actually, Steve, it's worse than you think.

...
Leo: It's not iOS, it's the desktop. They're talking about all apps sold in the Mac App Store. And I understand your confusion because you don't use an iPhone.

Steve: No.

Leo: They're not talking about iOS. That's already implemented. They're talking about in the App Store for desktops. So it's really kind of a shocker. And it's something I'd actually been worried about for some time because, while you can still, and always probably will be able to - well, I shouldn't say always - for the time being be able to sell apps outside the App Store, there's so much convenience and value to buying apps in the App Store that I think a lot of users have moved to the App Store. So what Apple's now saying, they've said all along no demos, no betas. What Apple is now saying is, if you want to --

Steve: I'm stunned.

Leo: I'm stunned, too. If you want to sell apps in the App Store on the desktop, your apps must be sandboxed. We've talked about this on MacBreak Weekly. I think the iOS-ification of the desktop is where Apple's headed.

...
Steve: Oh, yeah, as I said, with the inevitable loss of features. Now I'm stunned.

Leo: Can you imagine an application that cannot write to the file system?

Steve: Holy moly.

Leo: I truly believe that Apple's intent is to get everybody using its desktop computers to essentially be in an iOS-style state. It will be undoubtedly secure. And I don't, at some point, I don't understand how the transition's going to occur because of course you can still - I can buy an app that can write to the file system and for the time being will continue to. At some point, for this to make any sense, Apple's going to have to turn that feature off and say, just as on iOS, you must buy from the App Store, unless you jailbreak it.

...
Leo: Am I wrong? If you sandbox, does that not mean that you cannot write to the file system? Isn't that what that means?

...
Leo: I think what's really happening, and I think - now, with Steve [Jobs] gone, this may change. There are already some changes happening. And I think that this was a Steve. But with Steve gone, some of this is up in the air. But here's what I think they were headed towards: making, essentially making - and by the way, Microsoft's kind of doing the same thing with Windows 8 - making the desktop essentially an iOS, which is more secure, more controlled. I suspect Apple's apps, just as on the iOS, Apple's apps can do things that other people can't, because we trust ourselves, I suspect that what this does is pushes you - and Apple's always wanted this - into Apple apps. Apple would like you to buy only Apple apps...

...
Leo: ...I think what will happen is that people who want a full operating system will have to migrate somewhere else.

The following provides some background:

Quote

Leo: Now, the question is also how Apple implements sandboxing. We're interpreting it in the most draconian, strictest form. And I'm looking at what they do right now in OS X Lion, and they do allow an app, for instance, to write to the hard drive. But they have to go through Apple's dialogue box to do so. They can't examine other people's files. In other words, it's almost like application-based permissions.

Steve: Yes. I'm looking at something here, it says, "To then meet the program's needs, the developer includes a sandbox rule called an 'entitlement.' That allows the program to access the needed resource defined in that entitlement. The entitlements are managed by Apple, and thereby allow Apple to centralize how sandboxed programs can access resources in OS X."

Comments? As Steve and Leo say at another point, soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

JorgeA, on 11 May 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

You are not the only one:
http://www.urbandict...rm=dumb%20phone
http://news.yahoo.co...-171852131.html
http://www.prdaily.c...f_it_11560.aspx
and a nice picture from the latter:

Spoiler

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

jaclaz,

I can relate to everything they said in those links! Thanks for posting them.

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 12 May 2012 - 10:13 AM

[cluberti]

LOL - love that pic

[CoffeeFiend]

JorgeA, on 11 May 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

I want my cell phone to be as "dumb" as possible. Like a cartoon I once saw, of a customer at a cell phone kiosk: "I want a phone that's just a phone."

Same here. I just want a phone that can make phone calls. In fact, I only have a landline. It's definitely easier on the wallet! Unlimited calling, including long distance for $20/month flat. Getting cell phones for me and the kids on a shared plan, with some daytime minutes, some long distance, unlimited text and some data would cost me like ten times that.

Quote

So developers are not happy and have not been implementing Apple's sandboxing because it is restricting. It's restrictive and restricting some things that they would like to be able to do, reaching out of their own file system zone

Sandboxing sort of makes sense for a web browser and dinky apps. But yes, for regular old software it just gets in your way.

Quote

They're talking about all apps sold in the Mac App Store

So yeah, dinky apps sold online (no matter which device they run on) will run sandboxed. I mean, just how much access a dumb twitter client or weather app should need on your PC? That's not one of my real concerns.

Like they said, you can still install software that's not sandboxed, and most likely it'll always stay that way. I can live with that. That's not my main issue with Win8 either (simpleminded Metro apps run sandboxed, but everything else isn't)

Quote

I think what will happen is that people who want a full operating system will have to migrate somewhere else

Too bad there's nowhere else to go I guess. Yes, Windows and OS X may possibly one day be entirely sandboxed, as unlikely as it seems, and that would make running some software a real pain or downright impossible. However the main alternative to both is fundamentally incompatible with commercial software, so it'll most likely never be a viable platform for a lot of us.

Quote

soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go

...which isn't what I'm after. It's all about being able to run the software you need, not "thinkering". For what it's worth, Linux can also be very much locked down (file permissions, sudo, chroot jailed apps, SELinux, etc). And if everybody else does it then they'll probably follow.

All I want is to be able to run the software we need to get the job done. Right now that means running Windows, and OS X to a lesser extent (it still has FAR less useful apps, by a LONG shot, but it's still usable for a lot of tasks). However, even if Windows has more software going for it, they're going "full retard" with the UI, so I'd rather work on a Mac (not so much because it has an outstanding UI, but because anything and everything is better than Metro), and Macs stand a chance of getting more commercial software in the next few years (especially if MS screws up this badly). Linux offers an UI that's somewhat lesser than OS X (IMHO), but that's mostly irrelevant as it doesn't run the software we need and it most likely never will.

[JorgeA]

CoffeFiend,

Thanks for the comments, it's good to get the perspective on this Apple snadboxing thing from someone who has heavy-duty professional requirements.

CoffeeFiend, on 12 May 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Quote

soon Linux will be the only place where people who want to tinker with their OS can go

...which isn't what I'm after. It's all about being able to run the software you need, not "thinkering". For what it's worth, Linux can also be very much locked down (file permissions, sudo, chroot jailed apps, SELinux, etc). And if everybody else does it then they'll probably follow.

To be fair to the podcast guys, "tinkering" was my word. FWIW, in case it changes anything the exact way they put it was:

Quote

Steve: ...I was going to say that, if this continues, then this really changes the terrain, where these mainstream, high-volume, consumer OSes become closed systems, and Linux for the first time really starts to look like the place where the hackers --

Leo: If you want to do anything, yeah.

Steve: -- and the power users live, yeah.

CoffeeFiend, on 12 May 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

All I want is to be able to run the software we need to get the job done. Right now that means running Windows, and OS X to a lesser extent (it still has FAR less useful apps, by a LONG shot, but it's still usable for a lot of tasks). However, even if Windows has more software going for it, they're going "full retard" with the UI, so I'd rather work on a Mac (not so much because it has an outstanding UI, but because anything and everything is better than Metro), and Macs stand a chance of getting more commercial software in the next few years (especially if MS screws up this badly). Linux offers an UI that's somewhat lesser than OS X (IMHO), but that's mostly irrelevant as it doesn't run the software we need and it most likely never will.

Yeah, that would be a killer. Some Linux folks that I've met talk like it's the best invention since sliced bread, and yet as you point out they've been giving the OS away for years and they're still at -- what, only 1% market share or something. We might say that Linux stands at the opposite extreme of what Microsoft is trying to do with Metro: esoteric, obscure, and difficult to handle. Classic Windows was a good middle ground between Metro simplistic and Linux arduous.

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

JorgeA, on 14 May 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

it's good to get the perspective on this Apple snadboxing thing

I wouldn't exactly consider myself as some sort of reference regarding anything Apple really.

JorgeA, on 14 May 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

To be fair to the podcast guys, "tinkering" was my word.

Ah, yes. That changes the big picture a bit.

JorgeA, on 14 May 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Some Linux folks that I've met talk like it's the best invention since sliced bread

I hear that a lot, but they pretty much always fail to express exactly in what way it's better. Most of them are just blindly repeating what they've heard like good sheeple. Should you ask them an explanation, they'll typically reply with "it's free/open source" which basically means "I have no idea!" or "teh M$ sux!". About 1% of the time, you'll get an intelligent answer, by someone's who's been using it professionally for years, explaining how they use bash, common userland tools (grep, sed, cat, etc) and SSH to do their job (typically things like working with a LAMP stack on Linux servers -- not your typical desktop workload). Then again, I've seen that kind of answer come from Mac users more often. Also, it's kinda funny to see this as an answer to "how much more advanced Linux is", when most of these utils are from the 1970's Unix world (that sounds so futuristic!) The same brainwashed sheeple are those who will tell you Linux has all the software anyone could possibly need (you know, GIMP is is like, as good or better than Photoshop!), that you should run all your games under WINE, and that the hardware support is so much better than Windows (which is just a total BSOD-fest, you know) -- and if you say any different then you're either a troll or a paid shill... According to them, this year will be the year of the Linux. Those delusional people have been saying that for over a decade, it's just what particular feature they talk of which changes over time (it used to be things like GNOME, not so long ago it was Compiz Fusion, right now it's things like Wayland and I'm already wondering what it'll be next) -- while totally disregarding the big picture. They'll keep changing distros every few years (you can already see lots of people abandoning Ubuntu, which was the "new hot thing" 5 years ago), or as a way to solve issues with their current distro. Meanwhile, more users who are dissatisfied with MS products move to Macs pear year than Linux has gotten in 20 years, even if it requires buying new and expensive hardware.

JorgeA, on 14 May 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

esoteric, obscure, and difficult to handle

Perhaps to some extent. I can deal with that part, but the very limited selection of software that runs on Linux is very much a deal killer for me. If I can't get work done then what good is it? I'll still take a somewhat locked-down OS that runs most useful software over one that's unlocked but doesn't. Macs seem like the new "middle ground": it doesn't run as much as Windows, but it runs more than Linux. I still find Macs very limiting when it comes to what runs on them but at least you're free from Metro. I find Win7 to be a far better option than both, but that's only going to be a viable option for so long.

[Tripredacus]

JorgeA, on 11 May 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Funny you should mention downgrades. I just bought, on clearance, a tower system that was billed as "Vista Business." But when I booted up the machine, I got the XP splash screen. It turns out that the box came with separate DVD sets for both XP and Vista. So we might say that the computer was "pre-downgraded" to XP...

I'm wondering how aggressive Microsoft will be about pushing Windows 8. Will they disallow downgrades to 7? Given the other crazy things they've done, nothing would surprise me at this stage!

Yes when Vista came out, MS allowed a period for Downgrade Rights, which I think was 8 months or so. I can't remember the exact period. It was very helpful in business since many companies wanted to stick with XP. Even when Windows 7 came out, it had Downgrade Rights to Vista but I don't recall anyone actually using that. I'd expect the same model to continue for Windows 8 to 7, but I haven't heard anything about the program yet.

[Fredledingue]

As soon as I see that there is an interface in existance looking like Metro* on my PC, I immediately ask for refund.
(* or whatever the next "Bob" is called.)

[Joseph_sw]

I definetely vote against metro-for-desktop with my wallet!

Though i can see some way for micro$oft to get arround that.

MS will force new contract with OEM only to sells Metros not bundle it with any previous version of Windows,
then when the end-user doesn't like it, MS will sell to end user the "DownGrade Rights" (lesson learned from Vista experiences).

For single unit of desktop computer, MS will got the income from OEM and possibly the end-user as well.
MS will have double income, they can eat the cake and have it too.

[CoffeeFiend]

Joseph_sw, on 14 May 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

MS will have double income, they can eat the cake and have it too.

Also, it still counts as a Win8 sale, so it'll be the best selling OS ever (according to some twisted math like they've done for Vista)

[JorgeA]

Fredledingue, on 14 May 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

As soon as I see that there is an interface in existance looking like Metro* on my PC, I immediately ask for refund.
(* or whatever the next "Bob" is called.)

+1 to that.

If Tripredacus is right and it's possible to downgrade even after Win8 is released, then I won't have to rush out and buy the souped-up PC I've been eyeing, for a while longer yet.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

CoffeeFiend, on 14 May 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Joseph_sw, on 14 May 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

MS will have double income, they can eat the cake and have it too.

Also, it still counts as a Win8 sale, so it'll be the best selling OS ever (according to some twisted math like they've done for Vista)

*sigh* You're right. Still, I would take that over not being able to get Windows 7 at all once 8 comes out.

Back in the day, did anybody publish reliable statistics as to how many PCs that came with Vista installed got downgraded to XP? I'm sure that there will be some way to estimate how many Win8 systems actually make it to regular use, vs. how many are sold.

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 14 May 2012 - 10:17 PM

[Tripredacus]

Yeah, they already inflate their numbers by counting VLK and OEM sales into their retail figures. Now since they are marketing Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone 8 as "Windows 8" they can just toss those numbers in there too!

[Fredledingue]

Quote

Classic Shell 3.5 adds support for Windows 8

and

Quote

The Win8 Start Menu replacements are looking better and better. I'll give this a try.

_____________________
Amazing that we are still at the preview versions and coders already released patches to improve/correct it.

It speaks volume on MS inability to realize what poeple want or wether they care of that.

When the first Unofficial Service Pack for w8 Developer Preview?
______________________

Quote

customizability has been thrown out of the window, they're forcing crappy MS cloud services on users, ARM devices throw 20 years of backwards compatibility out the window (and they also introduce locked bootloaders), the app store that can remotely deactivate apps you paid for

and

Quote

but Metro is the future according to MS. The old desktop and all technology is dead for MS.

__________________
MS has decided to turn computers into interractive TV.
They signed at the same time the dead of the PC and the the birth of the shopping & entertainement console.
(Note the "cart" tile on the Metro)

And also the uniformisation of the interfaces. Wether you turn on a TV, a computer or a hand-held device you get the same screen with the same moronic suggestions about last products, fashion, new hits, weather and celebs.

I'm positive that even single moms with kids will hate it.
MS is very deeply underestimating the seriouseness of the regualar home users about their computer.
Just listen to non-geek/tech-ignorant poeple around you complaining about things, not so ignorant and not so non-geek.

IMO in the future, if you want to use your computer as a computer you will have to buy a version of Windows designed for serious, office works.

Because I can't imagine that MS think seriousely about selling W8+Metro to companies and professionals.

This post has been edited by Fredledingue: 15 May 2012 - 01:35 PM

[UltimateSilence]

People who purchase a new Windows 7 PC between June 2012 and January 2013 will be eligible for a discounted upgrade (15$) to Windows 8 Professional, according to this ComputerWorld article.

(Sounds like someone is worried?)

This post has been edited by UltimateSilence: 15 May 2012 - 06:01 PM

[Tripredacus]

UltimateSilence, on 15 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

People who purchase a new Windows 7 PC between June 2012 and January 2013 will be eligible for a discounted upgrade (15$) to Windows 8 Professional, according to this ComputerWorld article.

(Sounds like someone is worried?)

Well the interesting part of this isn't the fact there is an upgrade deal. That has been done before, but before it was free.

[Fredledingue]

Looking at the comment on Sinofsky's blog, the verdict is unanimous: Metro will is a disaster.

With all these negative feedbacks, they would be crazy to go ahead with that. They would face total incomprehension.

Warning: the list of comments is realy huge.

Not only they suck with their OS, they also do with their website.

[belgianguy]

Uh-oh... Windows 8 will "disappoint": Analysts cut price targets on HP, Dell and Windows Phone ranks below Bada in worldwide sales


While the phone market is still in its infancy, one could argue that kind of news is to be expected for WP7, but because of their "Windows everywhere" strategy, it might very well backfire right into its already hurting new desktop platform as well.