[jaclaz]

Allow me to disagree (partially) with this:

JorgeA, on 29 July 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Quote

By divorcing the OS from demanding applications and moulding it to work with portable, low-power hardware, one introduces a huge gap into the progress of computing. For example, for a long time, the OS advanced to accommodate powerful hardware and, in turn, applications became more intricate to exploit the capabilities of the hardware that the OS now revealed. This trend created powerful and cheap GPUs, multi-core, multi-threaded CPUs, fast buses, fast memory, etc, etc. This powerful hardware facilitated by the OS allowed companies to build very powerful applications such as complex video and photo editing software, etc, etc. Win8, designed to run in "barely there" hardware, forces a veritable stasis in hardware. If it is a vehicle only for the creation of portable, non-multitasking, full-screen apps (and these are the only applications that Microsoft would be offering through its Windows Marketplace), what would be the use for anybody to buy powerful hardware? None, really. Without mass availability of powerful hardware, how are complex applications supposed to get further developed?

Making use of more powerful hardware is what SHOULD have been done, NOT what HAS been done (particularly by Adobe, they have used this powerful hardware to add more and more bloat to their apps INSTEAD of having them work faster/better).

Get Adobe PDF Reader:
http://get.adobe.com/it/reader/
(36,94 MB) 10.1.0 <- not even the fatter one, the Adobe Reader X 10.1.3 is a whopping 51.95 MB (+an optional 22 Mb of Google Chrome)

and compare it (honestly) against:
http://www.foxitsoft...ure_PDF_Reader/
(14 mb)
They USED to make a "lean" thingy, see:
http://www.oldapps.c...oxit_reader.php
see the same "progresses" made by Adobe:
http://www.oldapps.c...dobe_reader.php
and compare with:
http://blog.kowalczy...pdf-reader.html
(2,4 Mb)
And of course the nice Krzysztof Kowalczyk is on the same trend:
http://blog.kowalczy...rapdf/news.html
(almost anything since version 1.2 is "added features" that are mostly unneeded or "forced upon" by the changes in usage of the "main" tools)

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 29 July 2012 - 01:38 PM

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 29 July 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

JorgeA, on 29 July 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Any thoughts on that? Have there been direct indications or confirmation that that's what MS intends to do?

You might want to rephrase the question, as is it might imply that they actually know what they are doing .

So I wouldn't focus on what the intend to do, but rather on what they are actually doing (mindlessly) which yes, it is the depauperating of the Win32 codebase, IF "third party developers" are demented enough to follow this lead.

jaclaz,

Well, yes -- you're right. I did assume that the folks at MS know what they're doing. Given what they've been doing, I guess that's a big assumption. But whether or not they realize the consequences of what they're doing, surely they must know if ultimately they intend to go "all WinRT"? That's what I'd like to know -- if that's the goal, foolish though it may be.

jaclaz, on 29 July 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Any developer in his right mind won't even touch something called "Visual Studio 11 Ultimate", example:
http://winrt.codeplex.com/

Yes, even words have their weight, and "ultimate" is a marketing adjective that is suitable to a game, or maybe to a graphic card, not to a developing environment.....
Now, go QUICKLY, before they change iot again here:

Looks like I wasn't quick enough! The first of your four links redirected me somewhere else, and the second one said that the content had been removed.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 29 July 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Making use of more powerful hardware is what SHOULD have been done, NOT what HAS been done (particularly by Adobe, they have used this powerful hardware to add more and more bloat to their apps INSTEAD of having them work faster/better).

Get Adobe PDF Reader:
http://get.adobe.com/it/reader/
(36,94 MB) 10.1.0 <- not even the fatter one, the Adobe Reader X 10.1.3 is a whopping 51.95 MB (+an optional 22 Mb of Google Chrome)

and compare it (honestly) against:
http://www.foxitsoft...ure_PDF_Reader/
(14 mb)

jaclaz,

I've noticed that, too. Trouble is, by going with a lighter OS (Win8) that's designed to work on lower-spec hardware, you can bet your bottom lira that they're going to remove useful features to get the software to "work" on tablets and similar toys.

I do like Foxit Reader; I'm using version 4.3.0.1110. I'd always used Adobe Reader, but when I updated it to Reader X two things happened: (1) the interface changed drastically in ways that I didn't care for (such as having the Search box hidden by default); and (2) the Search function was almost completely broken. You'd type in a term and it might, or might not, take you to a page that contained the term -- and if it did, you'd still have to look for it yourself on that page. It took Adobe months to fix that bug, and then they issued the fix as only a regularly scheduled update (instead of an emergency fix), which did not speak well for their level of dedication or concern. In the meantime I discovered and started using Foxit Reader, which moreover had adopted "yellow sticky notes" as a comment feature. Adobe incorporated that in X, but I discovered the broken Search and stoped using X before I discovered that they had sticky notes; so now I'm converted to Foxit.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

JorgeA, on 29 July 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Looks like I wasn't quick enough! The first of your four links redirected me somewhere else, and the second one said that the content had been removed.

No, maybe there is a misunderstanding, my bad .
The page:
http://msdn.microsof...2(v=vs.85).aspx
has ALREADY had it's contents removed, but it still titled "Dev Center - Metro style apps > Docs", I said "quickly" because they could remove it (without the link to the following *anytime*).
What I find interesting is that the above page is linked on the mentioned:
http://winrt.codeplex.com/
as a hyperlink titled "Windows Runtime"
Since I presume, that apart form the folly of using something called "Visual Studio 11 Ultimate" the good Raffaele Rialdi knows what he writes, I found queer that there is not any mention of "WinRT" or "windows Runtime" on the new pages:
http://msdn.microsof...s/br211386.aspx
http://msdn.microsof...s/hh974576.aspx
if not in the latter as:

Quote

Metro style apps can use the Windows Runtime, a native API built into the operating system. This API is implemented in C++ and supported in JavaScript, C#, Visual Basic, and C++ in a way that feels natural for each language.

I would also like to highlight the BIG NEWS (still on this latter page):

Quote

Apps can talk to each other

App contracts are a way for users to seamlessly search across and share content between different apps. They extend the usefulness of your app by eliminating the need to work with varying standards or app-specific APIs to access data stored or created by another app, all while keeping users in your branded experience. You don’t need to know anything about the target app other than its declared support for the target contract – it just works.

"Apps can talk to each other", I mean WOW, it's not like DOS anymore!
Please note how the above page is "in theory" targeted to "developers", I wonder about the "qualifications" that actual developers must have to actually *need* such a technical explanation as "You don’t need to know anything about the target app other than its declared support for the target contract – it just works."

It must be a joke of some kind , though I completely fail to get which part is the funny one

jaclaz

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

jaclaz, on 30 July 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

It must be a joke of some kind , though I completely fail to get which part is the funny one

I hear that. It's one of those jokes where you don't know whether to laugh or just barf. Here, another example just popped up ...

Microsoft planning ‘child-friendly' mode for Windows Phone 8?

I was gonna quote some of the breathless discovery but what's the point really.

Someone IM me when they make thing adult-friendly.

[jaclaz]

For NO apparent reason :

Spoiler

I wonder WHICH could be next MS product hosted in the "lower world"....



jaclaz

[JorgeA]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 30 July 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

Someone IM me when they make thing adult-friendly.

Gotta wonder who, exactly, it is that MS hopes to reach with the Metro tiles. They've already sold, what, 600 million Windows 7 licenses, 88 million Vista licenses, and how many more of XP. So, who's left? Mainly, people who either can't afford a computer, or who have zero interest in getting one.

Tablets don't address either of those conditions. The iPad of course is even more expensive than many modern desktop PCs, and Windows 8 tablets are shaping up to be about as pricey, so affordability is a moot argument; whereas (if I understand it correctly) in order to make use of a tablet, you need to have a WiFi connection -- but in order to have that, you need to have a PC or at least a router to provide the WiFie signal, and that requires a certain level of IT expertise so we can rule out the folks who have little interest in or aptitude for tech. So, who's left? People who already own PCs and have some undestanding of them, correct?

Maybe I need my morning coffee, but I can't think of a scenario where a tablet enables you to do anything that you can't do with a laptop or netbook computer. Unless you're going to start actually walking around town with your eyes and fingers on the tablet...

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 30 July 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

"Apps can talk to each other", I mean WOW, it's not like DOS anymore!

LOL, jaclaz

Thanks for elaborating. And it does give pause to see just how simplistic is MS's explanation of Metro apps. Who do they think will be writing them?

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 29 July 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

So I wouldn't focus on what the intend to do, but rather on what they are actually doing (mindlessly) which yes, it is the depauperating of the Win32 codebase, IF "third party developers" are demented enough to follow this lead.

jaclaz,

Apropos of that, I found the following analysis on the social.technet.microsoft website:

Quote

because of the MS deals with OEMs, Win8 would be "a success" to the level that both WinMe and Vista were "successes". However, if MS convinces developers to work on the WinRT and Win32 becomes "legacy", Win7 will be just a cemetery of old products. In fact, with Win8, MS is making certain that previous OSes are "orphaned". Anything developed for WinRT would not run in anything else than Win8 and successor OSes. Thus, when Win8 comes out, Win7 would be mostly "legacy" and an "orphan". If you want to continue with advances in computing, you would need to move to a new OS. I have the feeling that independent of our own choices, developers will code for WinRT (full-screen only, no windows, no-user program control) and they will abandon Win32 en mass. Thus, within a couple of years, Win7 will be history. In Vista days, programs developed in Win32 could run in earlier versions of Windows, but with Win8/WinRT, this would no longer be feasible.
Thus, if you do not want to move to Win8, you must plan your transition to a new OS right now.

If there is anything to this, then we may be facing a critical choice (whether to stick with Win7, submit to Win8, or switch to another OS) sooner than we'd thought. The key is whether MS gets enough developers to switch over to WinRT. I guess @CoffeeFiend would say, NO WAY!!

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

JorgeA, on 31 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

The key is whether MS gets enough developers to switch over to WinRT.

I would rephrase the above in a slightly more aggressive couple of questions:

• How many demented developers are there?
  
• And are they really all SO §@ç#ing demented?

Getting "sideways" from the strict "OS" field, I would presume that among the reasons why SilverLight is/has been/will be a totally dead language (or *whatever* it is/was/will be) it is exactly because it found very few followers among the deverlopers community, thanks heaven.

That is why the contents of my few previous posts are preoccupying , there is no reason for the mentioned:

Quote

Apps can talk to each other

and

Quote

You don’t need to know anything about the target app other than its declared support for the target contract – it just works.

if not that of luring the inexperienced kids into getting on the bandwagon.....
You, know dealers outside the school, LSD and stuff:
http://www.snopes.co...gs/bluestar.asp
I chose this example on purpose, being of course absolutely false, BECAUSE:

Spoiler

Quote

This bit of scarelore dates to at least the late 1970s, and it still makes little logical sense. A dealer looking to recruit new customers would do better to distribute a more addictive drug than LSD, handing out LSD-soaked candy would work far more effectively than passing around LSD-impregnated papers which require the drug to be absorbed through the skin, and elementary school kids are not known for having large incomes to spend on drugs.

... a typical case of fail at failing...

Try summing inexperienced developers to a senseless environment, I doubt that the result can be anywhere similar to a good app.


jaclaz

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

jaclaz, on 31 July 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Spoiler

jaclaz ... you owe me another monitor!

( Viewsonic 27" LED please. )

[CoffeeFiend]

JorgeA, on 31 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

I guess @CoffeeFiend would say, NO WAY!!

While I can't speak for everyone, nor can I guess the intentions of every person or company developing software, the effective level of interest I've noticed, be in real life or in various places online, has been effectively 0%. Many well known developers spoke against it recently, including key people from Valve (Gabe Newell), Blizzard (Rob Pardo) and Sony Online Entertainment (John Smedley). On our side (be it myself as a dev, or the company I work for) there are absolutely no plans to develop for Metro/WinRT anytime soon.

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

As we close in on the impending official death of Windows as we know it (perhaps mere hours away), the children are on the edge of their seats over at Fanboy Central ...

Windows 8 Start screen change in RTM to allow pictures

Has Windows 8 RTM gotten the "sign off"?

(Note: their images were nicked from Win8china.com and rumors from WinUnleaked as usual). Anyway, the latest image shows the powerful customization options of the Windows Retro start screen ...


( original )

A few selected quotes from the fanboys ...

Quote

"THAT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY AWESOME."

"Things keep getting better and better "

"Sweet. Very Zune-ish. I like them!"

"You just read my mind! Zune is the root of the Metro UI!"

"Looking good, Redmond."

Ahh children. You gotta love 'em. Is there really any difference between Generation iPod and Generation Xbox? Heck no. At least there are still a few adults left over there ...

Quote

"it will not help..."

"OMG Microsoft, just let me select a picture. WTF!"

"still don't like it.."

"Keeps getting uglier and uglier."

Most of us already figured this out from the DP/CP "wallpaper" but it seems clear that Microsoft has officially decided to steal err copy I mean borrow a famous 90-year old artistic style to rescue us from their "dated and cheesy" 2009 Windows Operating System ...

Spoiler

( originals: 1, 2, 3 )
Reference: Wikipedia

Microsoft Windows 8 : Featuring Art Deco from the 1920's ( because Windows 7 was so "dated and cheesy" in 2009 )


EDIT: Added spoiler, another link, misc cleanup, typos (arrgh!), updated image URLs, and again

This post has been edited by CharlotteTheHarlot: 06 May 2013 - 06:24 PM

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 31 July 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

I would rephrase the above in a slightly more aggressive couple of questions:

• How many demented developers are there?
  
• And are they really all SO §@ç#ing demented?

Good questions, jaclaz.

I guess time will tell what the answers are.

From the developer's perspective, we have to wonder why one would choose to work in an environment that limits scope for creativity in terms of the functionality that one can (1) work with and (2) offer to the user. But, what if enough professionals sense that that's where the money is going, so they'd better tag along?

jaclaz, on 31 July 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

... a typical case of fail at failing...

That image was simply delicious!!

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

CoffeeFiend, on 31 July 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

While I can't speak for everyone, nor can I guess the intentions of every person or company developing software, the effective level of interest I've noticed, be in real life or in various places online, has been effectively 0%. Many well known developers spoke against it recently, including key people from Valve (Gabe Newell), Blizzard (Rob Pardo) and Sony Online Entertainment (John Smedley). On our side (be it myself as a dev, or the company I work for) there are absolutely no plans to develop for Metro/WinRT anytime soon.

CoffeeFiend,

That's encouraging!

As jaclaz points out -- with respect to Metro apps, MS doesn't exactly seem to be courting the most sophisticated sort of thinking.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 31 July 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

A few selected quotes from the fanboys ...

Quote

"THAT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY AWESOME."

"Things keep getting better and better "

"Sweet. Very Zune-ish. I like them!"

"You just read my mind! Zune is the root of the Metro UI!"

"Looking good, Redmond."

Ahh children. You gotta love 'em. Is there really any difference between Generation iPod and Generation Xbox? Heck no. At least there are still a few adults left over there ...

Quote

"it will not help..."

"OMG Microsoft, just let me select a picture. WTF!"

"still don't like it.."

"Keeps getting uglier and uglier."

I'm with the last commenter -- it's just more and more hideous every time. Excellent connection you've made to Art Deco, BTW.

Incidentally, have you noticed how annoying the Windows Update function is in the Consumer Preview? If you're in the Desktop (and have updates set to nofity instead of automatically downloading), you'll never know that there is an update available unless you go looking for them by hand. No update notifications ever appear in the, umm, Notification Area. The only time you see any indication of it is when you boot up (and didn't MS now want us to keep our systems always on?) and then you get only a vague message that something's available, with no details unless you go into the real Control Panel.

Oh, and then the updates application is really aggressive about pushing "optional" updates. My CP has been offering an "optional" Nvidia driver update for weeks now. Since I have no need for it, and since I'm cured of the habit of risking driver updates just for the heck of it, I've been ignoring this update. But if I click on the "Optional updates available" link to see what they are, then uncheck the Nvidia driver update, and then hit the back arrow -- it tells me that that "optional" update is selected for download! In order to avoid this 193MB download while getting the "important" ones, I have to to uncheck it and then hit "install" right from that same screen, without going back to the summary updates window. I shouldn't have to hide the update, nor should I have to know that one can right-click to hide the update: Windows should simply respect my choice and leave it the @#$% alone. (As it used to in previous versions.)

Will check to see if the same annoyances apply to the Release Preview.

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 31 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

( Viewsonic 27" LED please. )

I am sorry , unfortunately I don't keep in stock 27" Viewsonic displays anymore.
I am working on hacking a few screens salvaged from devices like these:
http://www.ebay.it/i...=item3371fdb7ca

I can assure you that one of these 1.8" inch screens will provide a much better experience with the brand new Windows^® 8 as compared to a 27" inch screen.

I conducted a research, and though everyone with a numbers of neurons n>=2 insisted pointlessly that they had to actually work and that they wanted large screens and lots of open windows/programs in them, the vast majority with n=1 ( or less ) were very convincing is stating that all you need is as many open windows/apps as neurons you possess and working is something they simply want to be payed for, not what they actually do or want to do or are capable to do, so, on average, for the vast majority of users, a 1.8" display with one big window (big is to be intended as relative to the screen size) is enough.

Large displays are intended (possibly at least 100 Hz and HD) exclusively as means to look at lousy low-resolution supposedly funny videos downloaded from YouTube.

Which of course calls for a spoiler :

Spoiler

Naah, in this case you won't get away with a single click, try again!

Spoiler

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 01 August 2012 - 09:19 AM

[CoffeeFiend]

Win8 officially RTM'ed, the build is 9200.16384.win8_rtm.120725-1247

Now hopefully they can get around to fire Ballmer and Sinofsky for this disaster. Then they can create a version of Windows that doesn't suck so badly -- one that isn't for people who like to pretend their PC is a smartphone.

As for 27" LCDs, I've got an eye on inexpensive Shimian LCDs on ebay: 27", S-IPS panel and 2560x1440 for around $300!

Sure, there's only the one DVI input, it doesn't support HDCP (who cares?) and there's no OSD menus, but similar monitors with these features cost about 3x that...

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

( ~Yawn~ ) Well, might as well list a roundup of the articles announcing the Windows 8 RTM ...

Releasing Windows 8 - August 1, 2012 ( Microsoft Official Destroying Windows Blog )

Windows 8 has reached the RTM milestone ( Microsoft WindowSteamBlog )

Microsoft Finishes Windows 8 ( Thurrott )

Windows 8 goes gold, will hit MSDN and TechNet on August 15 ( TechSpot )

Microsoft confirms Windows 8 has hit RTM ( Fanboy Central )

Windows 8 Goes RTM: Last Milestone Before October Release ( Tom's Hardware )

Microsoft's Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone Today ( Maximum PC )

Microsoft RTMs final Windows 8 and Server 2012 code. Shuts the gate on final changes. ( UK Register )

Microsoft's Windows 8 Released to Manufacturers ( PC Magazine )

Microsoft Calls Windows 8 Complete, But Analysts are Concerned ( PC World )

Microsoft Releases Windows 8; Windows Store Open for Business ( PC World )

Windows 8 takes big RTM step toward consumers ( CNet )

Conspicuously absent ... Raymond Chen ( Who has really hardly mentioned Windows 8 much at all. Hmmm. I wonder why. Anybody know? )

So far there appear to be no real leaks of the RTM to the general public (no doubt Lenovo is being a little more careful this time). The only unanswered question left for me is whether the Microsofties made any last minute concessions to the unprecedented criticism and feedback about the Start Menu and Aero Glass. I think this is the important unknown, because it was the absolute last chance for Team B&S to prove they are not deaf, dumb, blind and arrogant beyond repair. Once the RTM left the shop their destiny was cast in stone. Any bets?

Staying on the path they have plowed, in spite of the tsunami of criticism would be prima facie evidence that they are intent on turning Microsoft into Apple (and why not, the fanboys are already in place) and will at the first opportunity destroy the last traces of the desktop and user control. Frankly, I believe it is tantamount to a declaration of war on the free and open x86 universe. And it is an attack on the entire history of the past 30 years. Microsoft was the biggest beneficiary of the x86 open architecture model, they did not create it. The massive installed user base of computers on x86 architecture is NOT their private herd of cows to milk or sheep to shear (though I sometimes wonder). There are a lot of blind fanboys out there saying stuff like "Microsoft isn't gonna kill the desktop", "They're not locking down anything", "Windows 8 is the same as 7". These people are slow cooking frogs in a pot and don't yet know it.


Microsoft Windows 8 : RTM ( Return To Microsoft )

[jaclaz]

Remembering that Analysts on average did NOT forecast (lately) the whole world crisis, and that IMHO what they say is often in no way more accurate than waht an average joe says,

From:
http://www.pcworld.c..._concerned.html

Highlighted the IMHO interesting parts.

Quote

But while RTM is a crucial milestone, analysts still have concerns.

"At launch, the store needs at least 5,000 very-high-quality Metro apps," said Patrick Moorhead, principal analyst at Moor Insights & Strategy. "Otherwise, Microsoft will have an extremely hard time, if not an impossible time, selling a Windows 8- or Windows RT-based tablet."

Moorhead said he was "concerned" that Microsoft would not meet his minimal benchmark, noting that in nearly a year -- the company first unveiled Windows 8 and developer tools in September 2011 -- the store has accumulated only a couple hundred apps. "If we map where they're at against where Apple and Android were at at the same point, they were well ahead of where Microsoft is now," Moorhead said.

Cherry had the same concern about Windows 8, RTM notwithstanding.

"Tell me an app that you just have to have today," Cherry said. "We need to see the exciting Metro apps that do something, that expose all the features of the OS that Microsoft has just completed. It's great that the OS is ready, but if I was to start using it on Aug. 15, what am I going to do on the Metro side of the house? I really don't know."

Once removed the SERIOUS English and logical errors (you CANNOT use "very-high-quality", NOR "exciting" "in the same sentence with "Metro Apps", let alone attributing these adjectives to them), there is IMHO an issue of some kind .

I consider myself (all in all) a rather knowledgeable PC user, and also think I have a rather good memory .

I thought a little bit to the number of programs I actually use.

There are no more than 20 that I use on a daily basis.
And no more than 200 that I use once in a while (very often to do very specific and "advanced" things).
I don't think to have ever run in my whole computing life 5,000 programs, or maybe I did, but forgot about 4,000 of them (as they were useless, didn't work or had a much better alternative).

If the trend is towards hundreds or thousands of (nonsense) apps, each doing only a very specific thing, the new frontier should be an app that helps the user to find the app he needs to do something, a user friendly database kind of thingy.

jaclaz