[Tripredacus]

jaclaz, on 02 August 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

There are no more than 20 that I use on a daily basis.
And no more than 200 that I use once in a while (very often to do very specific and "advanced" things).

While I presume that the Metro Store has its own documentation, I don't have that atm, and (to be honest) don't think I care enough about it to find it. But I can say a few things about it.

To start, I do know that all apps need to be approved (and digitally signed) before they can show up in the App Store. This means that there must be some (hopefully large) amount of people that tries all these apps before making them available. This doesn't mean that you can't just make an app and toss it in your Win8, you can do this for sure.

But back to why I quoted your post. There is a vision about Metro Apps (that ties into the removal of the Start Menu and the phasing out of the desktop experience) that lets Apps run without the (potential) ability to corrupt the operating system. This is yet another layer of "security" to keep users from hurting themselves as discussed many pages ago in this thread. That being said, Metro Apps aren't allowed into those protected OS areas that our advanced thingies are likely to go.

Want an app to format a USB key? Too bad.
Want an app to read or write an MBR to something? Nope, sorry.
Want an app that can read a thread's memory contents? Yeah right.

This would make me presume that even an app that could take a screenshot wouldn't actually be able to save it to your hard drive as a JPG, instead off to the cloud it goes?

Other things not allowed? enabling DVD playback, access the registry, replaces the Metro store or the Metro interface (or possibly add a Start Menu).... Oh and they can't launch other apps.

So to summarize, those 200 advanced type apps do not appear replaceable by a Metro app.

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 02 August 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

From:
http://www.pcworld.c..._concerned.html

Highlighted the IMHO interesting parts.

Quote

But while RTM is a crucial milestone, analysts still have concerns.

"At launch, the store needs at least 5,000 very-high-quality Metro apps," said Patrick Moorhead, principal analyst at Moor Insights & Strategy. "Otherwise, Microsoft will have an extremely hard time, if not an impossible time, selling a Windows 8- or Windows RT-based tablet."

Moorhead said he was "concerned" that Microsoft would not meet his minimal benchmark, noting that in nearly a year -- the company first unveiled Windows 8 and developer tools in September 2011 -- the store has accumulated only a couple hundred apps. "If we map where they're at against where Apple and Android were at at the same point, they were well ahead of where Microsoft is now," Moorhead said.

Cherry had the same concern about Windows 8, RTM notwithstanding.

"Tell me an app that you just have to have today," Cherry said. "We need to see the exciting Metro apps that do something, that expose all the features of the OS that Microsoft has just completed. It's great that the OS is ready, but if I was to start using it on Aug. 15, what am I going to do on the Metro side of the house? I really don't know."

jaclaz,

Apropos of that, there is this new analysis from Woody Leonhard:

Quote

Frankly, unless Microsoft has some spectacular Metro apps up its sleeve — the current preview versions of Mail, Calendar, People, SkyDrive, and Photos are all horribly stunted; the Music and Video are laughable — I don’t see Windows 8 or Windows RT making it to the top of many holiday shopping lists. A year from now, things will be different. But you have to wonder how much more consumer-market share Microsoft will lose in the interim.

And then there's this from ZDNet:

Quote

Given that the x86 version will command a premium price tag, I'm somewhat surprised that this is the flavor that most people are interested in. However, when you quiz interested consumers about what draws them to the x86 flavor over the ARM version, one phrase keeps cropping up: "backward compatibility."

This should send some clear signals to the Redmonians.

First, and immediately most worrying for Microsoft, is that buyers -- lowly consumers and enterprise buyers alike -- are willing to pay a premium amounting to a few hundred dollars to avoid adopting the Windows RT platform and its reliance on Metro apps. If this is how things pan out across the board, it doesn't bode well for the long-term viability of the Windows RT platform, the Windows 8 Store, or the touch-based Metro user interface.

Is there an emoticon for a face with hands clasped in prayer to heaven?

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

Tripredacus, on 02 August 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

This would make me presume that even an app that could take a screenshot wouldn't actually be able to save it to your hard drive as a JPG, instead off to the cloud it goes?

This topic has been ALREADY been covered :
http://www.msfn.org/...s/page__st__616

The good news are that you can save the few bucks for the OCR app if you want to save it as a simple JPG.

The bad news are that of course the image will be saved in the new TJPG format, and you will only be able to view it after connecting to MS servers and digitally sign an affidavit about you believing in good faith that the actual image is a product of yours, displaying it does not infringe any Copyright and represents NOT any nudity, obscene or anyway offending material and additionally an agreement to held MS indemn from any damage, so that you can get the 48 character long alphanumeric key that you need to digit on the keyboard rectius tap on the stoopid touchscreen of your stupid tablet) in order to allow (once) the Trusted JPG viewer to display the image.
This service will cost you a mere US$ 0.20 (+ local taxes where applicable)



jaclaz

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

On day one of the Windows 8 RTM comes signs of trouble in paradise ...

Is 'Metro' now a banned word at Microsoft? ( ZdNet )

Exclusive: Microsoft's Metro branding to be replaced 'this week' according to internal memo ( The Verge )

Could Microsoft be reducing usage of the word 'Metro'? ( Fanboy Central )

Report: Metro rebranding to come this week ( Fanboy Central )

Microsoft Halting Use of the Term ''Metro'' ( Tom's Hardware )

Microsoft replacing Metro branding, denies trademark dispute ( TechSpot )

Memo: Microsoft's 'Metro' UI to Get New Name 'This Week' ( Tom's Hardware )

Microsoft dumps Metro from Windows 8. Sadly, just the name. Someone else says they own it. ( UK Register )

Thurrott -- WinInfo Short Takes, August 3, 2012 ( WindowsItPro )

Microsoft Unceremoniously Dumps the Name 'Metro' ( Maximum PC )

Meet the Interface Formerly Known As Metro ( Maximum PC )

Microsoft Looks to Drop Metro Brand ( PC World )

Microsoft Dropping 'Metro' Name in Windows 8 ( PC Magazine )

The first two links appear to be the primary sources for most of the other reporting. Mary Jo Foley at ZdNet says this: "I've heard from a few sources that they believe Microsoft is stepping away from "Metro" because of a possible copyright dispute with some other entity. I asked Microsoft on this and received a no comment." She later updates her article with this: "Update: A spokesperson is now saying the reason for this Metro de-emphasis is not related to any litigation. (I asked if it is related to any kind of copyright dispute that hasn't yet gone to litigation and was told there would be no further comment.)". Ruh roh. She again updates with this: "Update: Tom Warren at The Verge said he has seen an internal Microsoft memo that indicates that "discussions with an important European partner" led to the decision to "discontinue the use" of the Metro branding for Windows 8 and other Microsoft products. A replacement term is supposedly going to be suggested imminently, possibly by this weekend. "

Oh dear. What is going on up in Redmond these days? I find it impossible to believe that legal was not all over this for the past three years, there is no way they woke up this week and started looking around to see if the most visible name for their next-generation paradigm shifting OS was an infringement waiting to happen. It also makes me wonder if in fact BING was ever researched for infringement ( ~cough~ Terabyte ) before launch. That deceptive statement: "not related to any litigation" really should bother people. It is a dishonest political denial of the kind we expect from a lying politician using a technicality. It is exactly what I would expect from a company that has lost its way and is no longer to be trusted. Yeah, there is no litigation, yet.

Ah well, in the spirit of freedom and benevolence. let it be noted that I hereby renounce all copyrights and grant Microsoft a royalty and attribution free right of use for these potential replacements! I do not want, nor will I accept any renumeration up to and especially including a free copy of Windows 8. I hope that others will follow my lead and agree to these terms when they suggest their own replacement names for Metro!

Microsoft : Tiles!
Microsoft : Retro!
Microsoft : Metrosexual
Microsoft Windows 8 : Sesame Street Edition
Microsoft Windows 8 ME : Metrosexual Edition
Microsoft Windows 8 ME : Monopoly Edition
Microsoft : TWAIN ( This Was An Infringing Name )
Microsoft Windows 8 SP : Steaming Pile

Okay, here are ideas from others ...

Windows : Vistro ( credit: claassenandre )
Microsoft : Window ( credit: Larry Crapbeans )
Windows : Last Edition ( credit: c2423 )
Windows 8 : Judgement Day ( credit: LinkOfHyrule )
Windows : Titanic ( credit: David D. Hagood )
Windows : pOS ( credit: Zombie Womble )
Windows 8 ME : Mojave Experiment ( credit: gothliciouz )

EDIT: added a bunch more links, and a few more names ;-)

Microsoft Windows 8 : RTM ( Realizing The Mistake? )

This post has been edited by CharlotteTheHarlot: 03 August 2012 - 11:41 PM

[jaclaz]

Cannot say if it is connected, but in Europe "Metro" is since what, forty years or more, a store chain (a particular one, cash&carry., half way between "retail" and "wholesale" here in Italy).
Metro AG:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_AG
http://www.metrogrou.../Lde/index.html
http://it.wikipedia....zzino_Metro.JPG

AND it has since 2006 the "Metro" as a Registred Trademark, btw through a rather reknown EU court decision:
http://www.just-food...se_id95994.aspx

It would not surprise me if our German friends decided to defend their trademark, for people in a number of EU countries Metro did actually sound like it would in the US have an OS called "Sears" or "Walmart"

Who knows if the original Simon name is now available? (or Hasbro still holds it ? Or if it was registered in the EU or in the US? )
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Simon_(game)

Spoiler

...after all the good MS guys already used "Bob"

JorgeA, on 02 August 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Is there an emoticon for a face with hands clasped in prayer to heaven?

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 03 August 2012 - 05:50 AM

[Tripredacus]

Simon would be a good name for Vista... maybe. Windows 8 is definately a Rubix Cube!

[jaclaz]

Tripredacus, on 03 August 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Simon would be a good name for Vista... maybe. Windows 8 is definately a Rubix Cube!

NO.
Rubix cube is an INTELLIGENT device.

jaclaz

[tomasz86]

Windows 8 has already leaked to the Internet...

http://www.theverge....ak-enterprise-n

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

tomasz86, on 03 August 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Windows 8 has already leaked to the Internet...

Yep, it did. (I didn't want to link to it because I don't see how it would pass forum rules though). It is the "N" version (European release sans WMP) and it is the corporate Enterprise volume license edition at that.

More importantly to me, the questions I had above (were there any concessions from Redmond to the overwhelming criticism of the death of the Start Menu and Aero Glass effects) appear to be answered. NO!

There is a video walkthrough on YouTube (mentioned at NeoWin) that does not appear to violate any rules (Mods agree? If not I'll delete it).

First Look: Windows 8 Enterprise N RTM - Stock Apps + Desktop



The video runs through most of the features and a few apps and the 'improved' desktop is clearly visible at 1:23 in its new glassless Aero form. No thanks Microsoft. I can turn Aero off if I want to on Vista/7 without your help. No sale. The Start Menu is still missing, exactly the same as the consumer betas. Word on the street also is that Tihiy's Explorer transplant was somehow blocked (for now). I haven't seen any comments on the Start Menu replacements yet. We shall find out soon I suspect. Congratulations Microsoft, you have re-defined the word deaf. And in the process you have turned yourself into IBM.

Microsoft Windows 8 : RTM ( Regretting This Milestone )

[CoffeeFiend]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 04 August 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

European release sans WMP

If anything, the EU shouldn't force them to help other people to chose another browser or media player (it's easy enough to install and use something else). They should rather force MS to allow disabling their retarded tablet/smartphone UI (which you can't actually disable). They're effectively making use of that desktop OS monopoly to try to get traction in the tablet & phone market. You'd think that would be a huge no-no.

I'd sooner upgrade to Vista than run Win8.

In other news, I am now the owner of a Mac Mini It was cheap enough, even if just for the learning experience (and getting to try Xcode 4 and Objective C). It'll definitely take some time getting used to but I can already see a few things it does better than Windows.

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

CoffeeFiend, on 04 August 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

If anything, the EU shouldn't force them to help other people to chose another browser or media player (it's easy enough to install and use something else).

Yep. The Netscape fiasco is still biting us in the butt. When Barksdale (Netscape honcho) was crying before Congress in 1998 or so, I just knew something bad was gonna happen. Enter the DoJ and the antitrust case. The smart people got out of MSFT and other stocks before the big one happened in Spring 2000 when the final decision was announced (United States v. Microsoft). That was over two years of uncertainty, rumors and worries on CNBC, in the WSJ and others. Finally, pop went MSFT, pop went NASDAQ and pop went the whole DotCom bubble. 'Pop' isn't the right word here, CRASH is. Ironically, it would be fun to blame Ballmer who was promoted around this time ( hehe, plot MSFT on a chart under his tenure ), but in reality it was the Justice Department and Congress that apparently had nothing better to do but harass Microsoft just for kicks.

Spoiler

( original )

BTW, this was the one time that an automobile analogy fit like a glove: ... telling Microsoft to NOT include a web browser in Windows is like telling Ford to NOT include a radio in a car. The radio can easily be removed, replaced, upgraded or ignored. Third party aftermarket radios thrive regardless. But was anybody listening to logic? Heck no. IMHO, most of the crash of 2000-2003 can be traced to the 1998-2000 Microsoft case, the apprehension around it and the fresh memory of AT&T and IBM. But the worst part of it all is that the whole case was over nothing. There were other things to look at (I think the OEM licensing and effective lockout of alternate OS is more suspicious) but this one was a real dog and counter-productive. It set the wrong precedent, made its way actoss the pond to Europe, creating the browser ballot and WMP-less versions. Both of these things exemplify utter stupidity, while ignoring other really possible monopolistic practices. Maybe Metro is their payback to all of us.

CoffeeFiend, on 04 August 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

They should rather force MS to allow disabling their retarded tablet/smartphone UI (which you can't actually disable). They're effectively making use of that desktop OS monopoly to try to get traction in the tablet & phone market. You'd think that would be a huge no-no.

Can you just imagine the Fanboy heads exploding! But I absolutely fully agree. Compared to the Netscape madness, I think this one has got legs. Attempting to convert the wider Windows desktop base to their walled garden really disgusts me because this is not their private customer base at all. Most of these people had no choice in using Windows and didn't ask to be in this game at all. At the very minimum it is immoral and unethical. And it is wrong.

Even though I couldn't care less about Windows 8, I have enough Windows licenses to last a lifetime (and collecting more retired computers all the time) but it would be sweet to see Microsoft backtrack on the Start Menu and Aero and the resultant meltdowns of the Generation X-Box fanboy population. They will meltdown even if only a choice of using it is offered (as it should be). That's how arrogant some of the Windows base has become. I don't know how it happened, how these kids became blind to freedom and choice, but it has happened, they have become Apple fanboys or worse.

Microsoft Windows 8 : RTM ( Rationalizing Telemetry Madness )

EDIT: updated image URL, and again

This post has been edited by CharlotteTheHarlot: 06 May 2013 - 06:26 PM

[jaclaz]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 04 August 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

BTW, this was the one time that an automobile analogy fit like a glove: ... telling Microsoft to NOT include a web browser in Windows is like telling Ford to NOT include a radio in a car.
The radio can easily be removed, replaced, upgraded or ignored.

Unless it is connected to other car electronic subsystems....
Imagine that the cruise control NEEDS the original radio to be there.
Or, more exactly, imagine that Mr. Ford affirms that you have to have the original radio because otherwise the cruise control that you set at 55 Mph may increase actual speed of the car at a 2 Mph/minute rate while the speed indicators remains fixed to 55.

1/2 to 3/4 of the issues have been because the MS guys attempted for years to convince people that IE was an essential part of the OS and that could not be removed.
What do you think fdv did ?
He simply called the bluff!

What the EU did on the IE case, was the same, after the WMP fines that actually led to the N version:
http://en.wikipedia....ompetition_case
Here:
http://europa.eu/rap...&guiLanguage=en
MS was never "punished", nor actually "judged" for the integration of IE, the EU simply announced that they wanted to have a deep look at it, and MS decided to make WIndows 7 E.

Quote

Background

A Statement of Objections is a formal step in Commission antitrust investigations in which the Commission informs the parties concerned in writing of the objections raised against them. The addressee of a Statement of Objections can reply in writing to the Statement of Objections, setting out all facts known to it which are relevant to its defence against the objections raised by the Commission. The party may also request an oral hearing to present its comments on the case.

The Commission may then take a decision on whether conduct addressed in the Statement of Objections is compatible or not with the EC Treaty’s antitrust rules. Sending a Statement of Objections does not prejudge the final outcome of the procedure.

In other words you are confusing the N version (Windows Media Player related and for which MS was condemned/fined) with the E version (Internet Explorer or more generally "browser" related for which MS changed plans without having been condemned/fined).
See also:
http://news.cnet.com...0262630-56.html


jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 04 August 2012 - 07:28 AM

[JorgeA]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 04 August 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

BTW, this was the one time that an automobile analogy fit like a glove: ... telling Microsoft to NOT include a web browser in Windows is like telling Ford to NOT include a radio in a car. The radio can easily be removed, replaced, upgraded or ignored. Third party aftermarket radios thrive regardless. But was anybody listening to logic? Heck no.

http://www.msfn.org/...94#entry1004694 :

JorgeA, on 21 July 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

The automotive analogy to Windows goes back a long way. I remember back in, what, 1995/96, during the antitrust litigation over IE vs. Netscape, Bill Gates testified that the browser was an integral part of the OS, and that splitting it from the OS was like taking the engine out of the car. I thought at the time (and would be surprised if somebody didn't say), that the browser was actually more like the car radio -- something to receive information from the rest of the world while the machine (the car, the OS) is going. So, to me, Bill was saying that he had designed a car that wouldn't run if you took out the radio...

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 04 August 2012 - 09:05 AM

[CoffeeFiend]

CoffeeFiend, on 31 July 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Many well known developers spoke against it recently, including key people from Valve (Gabe Newell), Blizzard (Rob Pardo) and Sony Online Entertainment (John Smedley)

John Carmack from id software (Doom) gave his thoughts on it yesterday too. Seemingly he doesn't care too much for it either.

[JorgeA]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 02 August 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

On day one of the Windows 8 RTM comes signs of trouble in paradise ...

Is 'Metro' now a banned word at Microsoft? ( ZdNet )
[...]

My heart jumped when I first saw the list of headlines!

And then I read through some of the articles, and realized that it was only the Metro name that's being eliminated...

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 04 August 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

More importantly to me, the questions I had above (were there any concessions from Redmond to the overwhelming criticism of the death of the Start Menu and Aero Glass effects) appear to be answered. NO!

Fanboy Central has an article where the writer and a pack of groupies gloat over the fact that most elements of Aero still remain in Windows 8. Most elements --- except for the most distinctive one, which is the transparent glass border around windows.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

Analyst: Microsoft Surface is the new Zune

Quote

...Tim Coulling, from leading technology market analysts Canalys, doesn’t think that Microsoft’s efforts will pay off. “The information available to date suggests the prices of both [the Windows RT Surface and Windows 8 Surface Pro tablets] will be too high to capture significant market share, and a direct sales approach will prove inadequate,” he explained, a reference to Microsoft’s plans to only sell the devices via its website and physical Microsoft Stores.

Worse still, Canalys believes that Surface will “have a similar impact on the PC industry as Zune did in portable music players”; despite being on sale for years, Microsoft’s Zune music players failed to sell in any great volumes, while Apple’s iPod went on to claim much of the market.

So the Metro UI failed in the Zune, in the Windows Phone, and now may well fail in the tablet market too. O Microsoft wisemen and fanboys, tell me again why it's such a great idea to graft it onto the Windows OS?

--JorgeA

[CoffeeFiend]

JorgeA, on 04 August 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

realized that it was only the Metro name that's being eliminated...

Indeed...

JorgeA, on 04 August 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Analyst: Microsoft Surface is the new Zune

All I feel like saying is "duh!". Of course it'll fail... All it'll manage is make the other Win RT tablets seem even less attractive, and that's quite a feat in itself.

MS managed to repeatedly fail in the mobile world (WM, Zune, Kin, WP, ...) when it's a market with huge growth, and that, with devices that had a very similar interface. In fact, their one and only non-failure (if you can call it that) on the hardware side besides the usual keyboards & mice is the Xbox. And that's because they're selling the hardware at a loss, and that they sunk over 30 billions into it (which they might never recoup -- they're basically already due for a new design) and consumers have still been plagued with the RROD. You also get to pay for online gaming unlike all other consoles, the dashboard also has ads, and there's not that many exclusive titles either. Nevermind that the Wii clearly outsold it, and that they're *barely* ahead of the latecomer and hard-to-code-for PS3. Now, add to that the usual poor launch, like missing the back to school period with Win8. Or the lack of the Apple "cool factor". The unavoidable x86/ARM confusion in customers. The people stuck with a touch UI on their desktops who will quickly learn to hate everything Metro (or whatever you're supposed to call it now) which is already abundantly clear... There's simply no way it's not going to be a huge flop.

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

jaclaz, on 04 August 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

In other words you are confusing the N version (Windows Media Player related and for which MS was condemned/fined) with the E version (Internet Explorer or more generally "browser" related for which MS changed plans without having been condemned/fined).

No confusion, I was just in a hurry writing that comment. I am aware of the several different versions but of course have never had reason nor inclination to get copies of them.

Just to clarify what I meant ... the DoJ antitrust case set a bad precedent, paving the way for these current EU versions (and whatever more to come). My point is that the precedent was bad exactly because it was over a trivial matter and consequently all further manifestations derived from it will also be trivial. That's my point. The 800 pound gorilla is in fact antitrust, not the trivial anti-competitive practices of bundling a browser. Thanks to the DoJ, that 800 pound gorilla was left free to wreak havoc because the DoJ wasted their ammo shooting at phantoms. A conspiracy theorist might even believe that Microsoft setup the MSIE vs Netscape fiasco just to have the government waste time pursuing it all the while they were busy with backroom deals, strong-arming Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq into exclusive deals, cementing the billion user base, setting up the current takeover attempt with a walled garden. (I don't subscribe to this setup conspiracy btw, but have strong reservations and suspicions about those backroom deals).

Amazingly, it all could have been much, much worse. After the 2000 judgment, I fully expected each and every free part of Windows to be challenged and eventually removed by every 3rd party software company. Calculator, Defrag, Notepad, Outlook Express, the list is endless. Then we would be left with DOS with a GUI. Needless to say, even the old traditional DOS would not survive under these circumstances since at least half of the internal and external commands could be challenged! For some reason only MSIE and WMP have been successfully targeted, but it really could have been the entire thing.

[dencorso]

In any case, the best replacemeny for the name "Metro" ought to be the prophetic "Fail'll" or "Failwill", or even "Fail-0"...