[jaclaz]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 13 September 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Got that? Didn't think so! I doubt that even IBM could have made a more tangled mess.

It's crystal clear to me.

Most probably because I use carpenter's comparisons.

Quote

In short Leroy Merlin (EU ) or Ace or Guardian (US) it 's not a single product.
It is not either a common hardware/construction materials store.
It's more like a "state of mind", you go there and you find many tools, the shop is nicely organized in departments, there is one for Tools and one for Power Tools.
As an example a sledgehammer is simply a Leroy Merlin Sledgehammer, more generally a Leroy Merlin Tool.
A Sledgehammer is a Leroy Merlin Tool, but NOT a Leroy Merlin Power Tool, as it is too d@mn simple to use, needs no electricity, nor any other accessory.
A Pneumatic Hammer is also a Leroy Merlin Tool, and ALSO a Leroy Merlin Power Tool, since it can break more easily, needs a compressor (and electricity to run it) and maintenance.
All kind of hammers are Leroy Merlin Tools, and some Leroy Merlin Tools can also be Leroy Merlin Power Tools, but not all Leroy Merlin Tools are Leroy Merlin Power Tools.

Back to the Apps, it's easy:
Can it break/malfunction?
If Yes it's Windows. (If No, it's DOS )

If you replied Yes to the above:
Can it break/malfunction, be ugly and more diifcult to use?
If Yes it's Windows 8 Windows Store App.

If you replied Yes to the above:
Can it break/malfunction, be ugly, more difficult to use, linked senselessly to different services/environments AND will actually break?
If Yes, it's Windows 8 Windows Modern App

jaclaz

[Tripredacus]

jaclaz, on 14 September 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

If you replied Yes to the above:
Can it break/malfunction, be ugly and more diifcult to use?
If Yes it's Windows 8 Windows Store App.

If you replied Yes to the above:
Can it break/malfunction, be ugly, more difficult to use, linked senselessly to different services/environments AND will actually break?
If Yes, it's Windows 8 Windows Modern App

jaclaz

I think the general idea can be made simpler.

Can it only break/malfunction on Windows 8?
If yes it's a Windows 8 Store App.

Can it break/malfunction on all versions of Windows?
If yes, it's a Windows 8 Modern App.

[jaclaz]

Tripredacus, on 14 September 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

I think the general idea can be made simpler.

NO.
You missed the "essence", besides breaking, the App MUST be ugly and less convenient/more difficult to use (being senselessly linked to heaps of unneeded services/dependencies/subsytems/whatever is instead optional).

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 14 September 2012 - 06:42 AM

[hoak]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 13 September 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Yesterday was the one year anniversary of the Windows 8 Developer's Preview ( which expires on January 15, 2013. ).

Windows 8 Developer Preview launched one year ago today ( NeoWin 2012-09-13 )

Which makes it hysterically funny that Microsoft is still fumbling the Metro naming fiasco. It is utterly astounding that they snoozed along for at least a year, probably closer to three, never bothering to check the legal viability of the name.

After Metro: Windows Store Apps and Modern Apps ( NeoWin 2012-09-13 )

Just try to make sense out of this gibberish ( it appears to be NeoWin paraphrasing, not direct quotes ). Warning: move your beverage away from your screen and keyboard ...

Quote

Thanks to an interview Neowin conducted today with Soma Somasegar, we now have better clarity into how to properly distinguish between Modern Apps and Windows Store Apps.

In short, Modern Apps is a high level look at applications and does not refer to a single application but is the shell that some Windows Store apps reside. Modern App refers to how an application works and by Soma's definition, any application that spans multiple platforms (Windows 8 and Azure or Windows Phone and Azure, or Windows Phone and Windows 8) is considered a modern application. An application that only runs inside Windows 8's new Start screen, is considered a Windows Store App.

A Windows Store App is not necessarily a Modern App, an example of this would be any application that is standalone, such as Escapa. Escapa would be considered a Windows Store App, but not a modern App because it stands alone and does not depend on any other service to operate. If Escapa added functionality to have cross platform gaming, then it would be a Modern App too. Essentially, a Windows Store App can also be a Modern App too but not all Windows Store Apps are Modern Apps.

As Microsoft works to removed Metro from search engine results, they will replace it with Windows Store Apps and Modern Apps. Always remember that a Modern App is an app that spans Microsoft's ecosystems and Windows Store Apps are specific to the Windows Store.

Got that? Didn't think so! I doubt that even IBM could have made a more tangled mess.

Microsoft Windows 8 : Metro ( Call it what you want, we got nuthin! )

LOL OMG WHAT?! That actually is more convoluted then language in an IBM APAR! I would love it if Microsoft actually tried to use language like this in a television spot, kind of like Kafka meets Escher in OS ad copy writing -- it would be perfect! Metro... What is it? Surreal!

This post has been edited by hoak: 14 September 2012 - 08:57 AM

[JorgeA]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 13 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

You know I had no choice but to quote that to see how far the rabbit hole goes.

In light of jaclaz's experience, I'll resist the temptation to go deeper!

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 14 September 2012 - 04:19 PM

[JorgeA]

hoak, on 13 September 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

JorgeA, on 12 September 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

So, putting Thurrott's declarations together, "the desktop must die" and the Metro-faced PCs we use will be running on ARM.

What will that mean for gaming, CAD, video and photo editors, financial analysts, and anybody else whose work and interests require the use of high-powered machines?

Well obviously not today but the theory is sound; ARM architecture can scale just fine to meet high-power computing requirements, and some software Developer/Publishers might like the idea of a 'reboot' on a new platform, with DRM and a walled garden that works and offers at least the promise of more profitability. However when you factor in that it will be Microsoft's DRM, Microsoft's walled garden, and Microsoft's dysfunctional Metro/Modern/NCI (where did NCI come from?) interface -- it's difficult to understand how any Developer/Publisher without a twenty year contract with Microsoft could find this any more appealing then any rational Consumer that's functioning above the neck...

Thanks for filling me in on this, hoak.

It's a little reassuring to learn that, if ARM wins the day, we won't necessarily be relegated to using low-power processors.

But what will become of our "legacy" x86 applications as our PCs die and need replacing? At that point, I suspect, we'd be sucked into the Matrix world of pre-approved apps in a Microsoft cocoon, right?

(By way of contrast, AFAIK pretty much any of my post-DOS programs will work on my current PCs if I choose to run them there.)

--JorgeA

P.S.: NCI = Nameless Crap Interface -- jaclaz's designation, devised after MS dropped "Metro" without apparently coming up with a new name that sticks

[JorgeA]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 13 September 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Just try to make sense out of this gibberish ( it appears to be NeoWin paraphrasing, not direct quotes ). Warning: move your beverage away from your screen and keyboard ...

Quote

Thanks to an interview Neowin conducted today with Soma Somasegar, we now have better clarity into how to properly distinguish between Modern Apps and Windows Store Apps.

In short, Modern Apps is a high level look at applications and does not refer to a single application but is the shell that some Windows Store apps reside. Modern App refers to how an application works and by Soma's definition, any application that spans multiple platforms (Windows 8 and Azure or Windows Phone and Azure, or Windows Phone and Windows 8) is considered a modern application. An application that only runs inside Windows 8's new Start screen, is considered a Windows Store App.

A Windows Store App is not necessarily a Modern App, an example of this would be any application that is standalone, such as Escapa. Escapa would be considered a Windows Store App, but not a modern App because it stands alone and does not depend on any other service to operate. If Escapa added functionality to have cross platform gaming, then it would be a Modern App too. Essentially, a Windows Store App can also be a Modern App too but not all Windows Store Apps are Modern Apps.

As Microsoft works to removed Metro from search engine results, they will replace it with Windows Store Apps and Modern Apps. Always remember that a Modern App is an app that spans Microsoft's ecosystems and Windows Store Apps are specific to the Windows Store.

[JorgeA]

hoak, on 14 September 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

LOL OMG WHAT?! That actually is more convoluted then language in an IBM APAR! I would love it if Microsoft actually tried to use language like this in a television spot, kind of like Kafka meets Escher in OS ad copy writing -- it would be perfect! Metro... What is it? Surreal!

Well, as (I think) Tripredacus pointed out, MS already ran spots for IE9 barely two months before the official introduction of IE10, so they might bite on the suggestion.

Picture Abbott and Costello lookalikes trying to explain this in a "Who's on first?" type of routine...

--JorgeA

[hoak]

LOL Jorge, someone really should do a spoof with that there's so much good material in Windows 8 for it; the 'Charms Bar' is officially just called 'Charms' so there's the confusion over individual items in the bar or the bar itself, Start, the Start Screen, Metro, Window, Windows, Modern -- the list just goes on and it's more fun then a barrel of biting monkeys (but not much)!

[jaclaz]

On other UNrelated news :
http://www.metro.co....race-the-future

What else one could say if not :

fictional comment #1 said:

WOW, look a the clear crispness of the new logo, at the accurateness of the spacing, to the way the designer manage to create something entirely new, but still deliver a family feeling. And the choice of colours, astonishing, out of millions of colours that can be displayed on modern screens the choice is so original...
The clear reference to BauHaus, yet avoiding the use of stereotypes, makes clearly this logo a true masterpiece.

fictional comment #2 said:

Are you serious? Someone actually got paid for this design?

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

jaclaz, on 16 September 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

On other UNrelated news :
http://www.metro.co....race-the-future

What else one could say if not :

fictional comment #1 said:

WOW, look a the clear crispness of the new logo, at the accurateness of the spacing, to the way the designer manage to create something entirely new, but still deliver a family feeling. And the choice of colours, astonishing, out of millions of colours that can be displayed on modern screens the choice is so original...
The clear reference to BauHaus, yet avoiding the use of stereotypes, makes clearly this logo a true masterpiece.

fictional comment #2 said:

Are you serious? Someone actually got paid for this design?

jaclaz

LOL, in the article somebody is quoted as actually saying that the design is "contemporary."

If this is indicative of the design trend, then maybe I can change careers and become a logo designer.

Which brings up another thing that's been bothering me. Even if I never get Windows 8, or even if I ever do get Windows 8 but manage to avoid the Metro screen -- my eyes will still have to be insulted by that plain ugly Metro look, as more and more websites are adopting it.

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 16 September 2012 - 09:48 AM

[JorgeA]

Ars Technica has a lukewarm review of the Win8 "touch" experience on an all-in-one desktop PC:

Quote

The big gestures required by some of these games and apps brings to light one of my core complaints about the Windows 8 touch experience on an all-in-one, however: actions that on a tablet or smartphone require a quick flick of a thumb or finger require your entire arm to function on the larger screen, and you’re often holding your arm out in front of you to interact with the screen on your desk, rather than having it in a more comfortable resting position. A game like Fruit Ninja or Cut the Rope—anything that requires repeated, sustained, or frantic interaction with the touchscreen—quickly goes from entertaining time-waster to arm-fatiguing aerobic exercise.

Quote

At this point, touch support adds very little to the desktop computing experience. It falls firmly into the "nice to have" category—you certainly can play touch games and interact with touch-enabled applications this way, but for most general computing tasks the keyboard and mouse pairing is still the most efficient way to interface with your PC.

It's conceivable that Win8 touch PCs will be received in the market about as well as 3D TVs: with an "I don't need this" yawn.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

Another utility to boot directly to the Windows 8 desktop has been devised.

How many of these tweaks and hacks will be needed for MS to take the hint that we don't want to be herded into doing things one particular way?

--JorgeA

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

JorgeA, on 16 September 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

LOL, in the article somebody is quoted as actually saying that the design is "contemporary."

If this is indicative of the design trend, then maybe I can change careers and become a logo designer.

Yeah, don't bother. It won't make a difference changing careers to help this or any other flailing sector. Rembrandt, Da Vinci, Picasso, or Dali couldn't help them out.

The comments praising this logo or Microsoft's logos are a symptom of a larger problem - declining standards. It's what happens when anything moves from specialized niche market status into the wider ' wouldn't-recognize-quality-if-it-smacked-them-in-the-head ' mainstream. This occurs in every field, not just computers, communications or tech in general. It is mass consumerist, quantity over quality, stock price over customer, spreadsheet economics. And it is a devilish problem as quantity will almost always win over quality.

In this particular Windows 8 thread it is all about the retarded mobile device interface invading the personal computer desktop. Some of the other numerous examples were when LCD screens ( which were gradually improving 10-5 years ago but not yet ready for prime-time) replaced CRT's practically overnight. When anything goes mass market, R&D virtually stops and the focus becomes incremental improvements and only if they don't decrease profit margins. In the case of LCD's, it has taken forever just to move to LED backlights instead of fluorescents and will take far, far longer to get to where we should have been all along with discrete RGB LED's rather than LCD filtering cells. ~sigh~ The same case can be made for digital cameras which also came online too quickly, sacrificing important R&D into sensor tech and optics in trade for the megapixel marketing race.

The music industry went through a similar metamorphosis in the 1980's to 1990's when the least talented but most marketable to the lowest-common-denominator with the highest profit margin became the focus. Whether it was Michael Jackson, Madonna, or any other number of pop or rap 'stars', the ratio of them against the truly talented ( insert whatever you personally enjoy ) will be 100:1 or more.

The consequence is that the 'exceptional' is always the first victim to the consumerist business model. In Windows, once could sense this with the attitude displayed by Microsoft when they were trying to salvage Vista and routinely bad-mouthed their own hugely successful WinXP, something I don't recall them doing previously to Win2k or even Win9x when WinXP was promoted in 2001. To me it was the tip-off of their internal plans to move Windows into this mass-consumerist, McDonald's hamburger category and away from the traditional NT state-of-the-art and nobody-does-it-better bragging rights. Like in all the other examples ( LCDs, Cameras, and many more ), I believe that Microsoft is cashing out their R&D investment to succumb to quantity over quality. It's the easy way.

The eBay logo, and both Microsoft's corporate and Windows logo fiascos are just a few signs of a stampede race to the bottom. Or a sign that, as Jaclaz has said, 'the human race is doomed'.

[hoak]

JorgeA, on 14 September 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's a little reassuring to learn that, if ARM wins the day, we won't necessarily be relegated to using low-power processors.

Well, I don't know if that's really the largest or object concern with respect to processor platforms; a more realistic concern is Intel/AMD and/or their OEM 'partners' selling out to Microsoft pressure for various exclusive implementations of TPM and UEFI that exclude alternative operating systems (including downgrades) and software like this latest news gem and of course the the 'Secure Boot' Microsoft is mandating from OEM partners... With only 3.2 licensees (Intel, AMD, VIA, and Transmeta) x86 on the surface appears more likely to imperil itself through limited licensure, platform restrictions, DRM, and walled gardens that sours anything that interfaces with Microsoft into 'the' unappealing platform rather then just being run over by ARM.

ARM Holdings by contrast will license its architecture(s) to anyone; with over 25 of the biggest names in hardware design development and production, and over 20x that in total licensees at a average license/royalty cost of about 7¢ per processor -- just about anyone that has the means to get a chip in production can license ARM and build anything they want from a phone, to a PC, to a massive multi core servers. And while any OEM that builds on ARM can create their own walled garden (as Apple and Google have), there's no way to exert pressure over the ARM platform for licensure to exclusivity.

That ARM architecture has been primarily rolled in low power implementations is in no way a design limitation of the architecture; but that it got it's foot in the market there I think will be a tremendous boon to the platform's success; as the x86 PC is now the most expensive consumer appliance to leave running, surpassing even the refrigerator; with most PC consumers having more processing power then ran Fortune 500 companies just two decades ago, use less then a fraction of a percent of that processing capability and are only enriching power companies...

JorgeA, on 14 September 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

But what will become of our "legacy" x86 applications as our PCs die and need replacing? At that point, I suspect, we'd be sucked into the Matrix world of pre-approved apps in a Microsoft cocoon, right?

Well as far as the Microsoft OS that certainly appears to be their plan to make it appear that way. But ARM architecture already will run any Microsoft x86 OS and software in a Hyper-Visor, as well as under a number of emulators -- in fact ARM servers are already doing exactly that hosting Microsoft enterprise servers and applications...

JorgeA, on 14 September 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

By way of contrast, AFAIK pretty much any of my post-DOS programs will work on my current PCs if I choose to run them there.

I suspect if the Microsoft/x86 becomes a really ugly hegemony, by that time we'll have ARM/*NIX machines aplenty, and all the user friendly emulation you'll need to run Windows 7, XP, DOS and concomitant legacy applications will be good to go -- in fact if you're a modestly capable Linux geek this is already a done deal.

There's also a cost factor here; ARM and *NIX can easily undercut the Microsoft+Intel/AMD proprietary platform; and with $85 billion in quantitative easing a month with no limit -- inflation and costs are going to prevail on the future of what happens in this market as much or more, then any 'plan' a big mucky muck of a company might have...

JorgeA, on 14 September 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

P.S.: NCI = Nameless Crap Interface -- jaclaz's designation, devised after MS dropped "Metro" without apparently coming up with a new name that sticks.

LOL missed that one, thanks Jorge; "NCI" is certainly going to stick with me!



Edit: An interesting article on the Intel/Imagination Technologies/Microsoft collusion just appeard here on Slashdot, and this article on the AMD x86 APU roadmap to Hondo -- sounds like Microsoft is throwing cash from their enormous slush fund out the window before it's devalued by inflation...

This post has been edited by hoak: 17 September 2012 - 03:25 AM

[jaclaz]

hoak, on 16 September 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

JorgeA, on 14 September 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

P.S.: NCI = Nameless Crap Interface -- jaclaz's designation, devised after MS dropped "Metro" without apparently coming up with a new name that sticks.

LOL missed that one, thanks Jorge; "NCI" is certainly going to stick with me!

The real issue being, as said:
http://www.msfn.org/...32#entry1009332
that unfortunately the acronym has been neededly shortened, so it fails to deliver fully the message.....
On the other hand, an alternative name, short for Modern Enhanced Revolutionary Dumb Approach , while still predating from the Italian language, would not be fully appreciated by the non-italian speaking peeps.

jaclaz

[dencorso]

[hoak]

Well 'MERDA' works fine in Portuguese as well, and is close enough to the French and Spanish pronunciation that most will know you're talking about Microsoft new steaming pile of...interface....

This post has been edited by hoak: 17 September 2012 - 03:31 AM

[Tripredacus]

JorgeA, on 16 September 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Ars Technica has a lukewarm review of the Win8 "touch" experience on an all-in-one desktop PC:

There is some arm length of requirements for Windows 8 to be on a touch screen PC. So I'd imagine that this review may not be 100% accurate of an actual final product that a company may end up selling. I say this because:

Quote

Lenovo sent us one of its IdeaCentre A720 all-in-ones, but rather than do a traditional review of the system, we installed Windows 8 RTM code on it to get some idea of what touch support brings to the desktop

I can't find the touch screen specs, so I can't compare with the requirements of the OS for touch. Here is where you can find the requirements and testing for touch screen in Windows 8:
http://msdn.microsof...e/hh852381.aspx

So Ars just installing the RTM onto the thing and expecting the results of a touch system certified for Windows 8 out of the box isn't a good indicator of how well Windows 8 works with touch.

[jaclaz]

JorgeA, on 16 September 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

LOL, in the article somebody is quoted as actually saying that the design is "contemporary."

If this is indicative of the design trend, then maybe I can change careers and become a logo designer.

Yep, JFYI:
http://www.businessi...f-brands-2012-9
http://www.webdesign...with-helvetica/

The future is seemingly sans-serif (and with not that much intelligence too )

jaclaz