[Servelius]

xpclient, on 01 May 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

● The "Compatibility" tab for an application's properties no longer includes 'Windows 2000' and 'Windows NT 4.0' modes. You will be forced to use Application Compatibility Toolkit to set these OS modes.

And I also noticed that Server 2012 doesn't include Windows 8 compatibility mode, unlike Server 2008 R2 that does offer Windows 7 compatibility option.

[MagicAndre1981]

Looks like MS wants to buy extra expensive Server Software (AV Tools, Backup Tools) and not the consumer Software...

[Servelius]

Yea, but I should also notice that Windows 7 Compatibility was pretty useless. Generally software explicitely meant for client systems does not work on servers in compatibility mode either.

[JorgeA]

MrGRiM, on 21 October 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Anyway not sure if all of that is still relevant or what else MS decided to take out but personally I will stick with Win 7 as my main Desktop OS and Win 8 will remain just on my VM for research and development purposes only (I may still buy a Windows 8 Tablet )

I'm with you on that. The only reason I might buy Windows 8 would be to get the Pro pack with Media Center (we use it to watch cable), so that we can get MS support for WMC for (hopefully) three more years.

--JorgeA

[Servelius]

Lol, browsing forums for 'no start menu' I read someone pretending quite happy with it, saying that Metro screen provides better access to all programs (!) "as it was frequently proven in blogs."

That means if they prove something got better in Windows 8, you better take it.

[MagicAndre1981]

Servelius, on 21 October 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Yea, but I should also notice that Windows 7 Compatibility was pretty useless. Generally software explicitely meant for client systems does not work on servers in compatibility mode either.

I must say, I've never used Server as Desktop/Workstation OS, so I have no idea if this worked or not.

[Servelius]

MagicAndre1981, on 21 October 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Servelius, on 21 October 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Yea, but I should also notice that Windows 7 Compatibility was pretty useless. Generally software explicitely meant for client systems does not work on servers in compatibility mode either.

I must say, I've never used Server as Desktop/Workstation OS, so I have no idea if this worked or not.

In biggest majority of cases it didn't.

[Servelius]

xpclient, on 01 May 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

● Start Menu.

● Flip 3D is gone

This is Microsoft biggest mistake because Start menu and Flip3D were so succesfully designed, functional, and outstanding that other systems were not even close. Removing them was like throwing to the garbage a piece of art. Both Start and Flip were used and loved by many users, Microsoft should bring them back with SP 1:

http://social.msdn.m...7-f9a94a800b64/



--------------------------------------------------

Availability of start menu in Windows 8 does not hurt metro at all, I use both. Diversity of features is always a big plus.

[xpclient]

Blame this woman: It's like the Midas touch. Whatever product she touches, it becomes dumbed down, non-customizable and features stripped from it. The Green touch. Office 2007. Ruined. Windows 7 Taskbar. Ruined. IE9 Ruined. Windows 8 Ruined. What will Green touch next? Fear this woman.

This post has been edited by xpclient: 23 October 2012 - 03:47 AM

[Tripredacus]

Servelius, on 23 October 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

xpclient, on 01 May 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

● Start Menu.

● Flip 3D is gone

This is Microsoft biggest mistake because Start menu and Flip3D were so succesfully designed, functional, and outstanding that other systems were not even close. Removing them was like throwing to the garbage a piece of art. Both Start and Flip were used and loved by many users, Microsoft should bring them back with SP 1:

http://social.msdn.m...7-f9a94a800b64/

I wonder how much Flip 3D was actually used. I never used it (on purpose) and I think MS got that idea from Ubuntu anyways.

[Servelius]

xpclient, on 23 October 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

Blame this woman: It's like the Midas touch. Whatever product she touches, it becomes dumbed down, non-customizable and features stripped from it. The Green touch. Office 2007. Ruined. Windows 7 Taskbar. Ruined. IE9 Ruined. Windows 8 Ruined. What will Green touch next? Fear this woman.

Arr, come on, she's good. She did say that Windows 7 was her idea, and Windows 7 wasn't bad. But Windows 8 is a little bit ... not to say what millions of angry users think. I guess in time we'll love it and thank Julie Green for such revolutional step.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tripredacus, on 23 October 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

Servelius, on 23 October 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

xpclient, on 01 May 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

● Start Menu.

● Flip 3D is gone

This is Microsoft biggest mistake because Start menu and Flip3D were so succesfully designed, functional, and outstanding that other systems were not even close. Removing them was like throwing to the garbage a piece of art. Both Start and Flip were used and loved by many users, Microsoft should bring them back with SP 1:

http://social.msdn.m...7-f9a94a800b64/

I wonder how much Flip 3D was actually used. I never used it (on purpose) and I think MS got that idea from Ubuntu anyways.

-- Ubuntu's task witching layout and its animations are so different from Flip3D, Microsoft made it new and unique. Just my opinion.

-- Quite a few people used it, take alone that msdn thread, or see internet how many articles since Vista times did mention this feature with praise and pictures.

Well, since long time ago I read some people claim to do without start menu, so I guess their opinion was finally taken into consideration.

[JorgeA]

Servelius, on 23 October 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

This is Microsoft biggest mistake because Start menu and Flip3D were so succesfully designed, functional, and outstanding that other systems were not even close. Removing them was like throwing to the garbage a piece of art. Both Start and Flip were used and loved by many users, Microsoft should bring them back with SP 1

Flip 3D is by far the coolest feature of Vista/Win7 (IMHO)!! It introduces a measure of FUN into an otherwise sedate business tool.

And of course I use the Start Menu for 95% of my program launches. I find it psychologically unsettling to have a cluttered Desktop, or a Taskbar full of little permanent icons.

--JorgeA

[MagicAndre1981]

I've never really use Flip3D. It is useless if you have multiple Windows open. It takes too long to scroll through all.

This is better:



http://insentient.ne...r/Overview.html

[JorgeA]

That's pretty neat, too, Andre (thanks for the link).

I see on their webpage that it requires Vista. I wonder if it will work in Windows 7 or 8?

EDIT: Never mind about Win8 -- the program requires Aero!

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 23 October 2012 - 04:34 PM

[CoffeeFiend]

The taskbar is Win7's best feature IMO. It's really a godsend. I only use the start menu as a last resort or for the common but not common enough to be pinned to the taskbar apps (then Win8 just replaces it with a awful smartphone UI). I mean, it's not like I can physically pin everything I use to the taskbar.

As for Flip 3D, I've never actually seen anyone who uses it, save for Scott Hanselman when he uses it as a way to make people laugh in his lectures (just hold the buttons and go "Weeeee!" as windows just fly past). It's *far* too slow to react to be usable at all. In 2 really quick keystrokes, alt-tab switches to the previous app. Instantly. Whereas a quick tap of win+tab doesn't actually work, it just partially animates a bunch of large thumbnails appearing on the screen. You have to hold the buttons down and wait so very patiently, then you only fully see one full "thumbnail" at once (unlike alt-tab which shows all thumbnails in full at once), and it also takes forever to change focus after you release the keys. And if you think holding the keys down to make it automatically scroll through the apps is going to be of any help, then you'll quickly realize that by the time you've recognized the "thumbnail" of the app you want, it's scrolled well past it, requiring to very awkwardly win-shift-tab your way back. It's absolutely awful. Completely terrible. It easily adds couple extra seconds or more of pointless delay to a classic alt-tab operation which normally takes like perhaps 50ms. I don't think they could possibly screw it up worse than it is. Alt-tab works FAR quicker and better than win-tab to quickly switch back, and if you have to find the app when you have lots of them open then the taskbar is still faster and works better than Flip3D. It's shamefully bad.

MagicAndre1981, on 23 October 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

This is better

I completely agree. That's where Apple gets it right. Mission control (or exposé) works just like that (only it's way more responsive, it also manages different spaces (desktops) beautifully, it has a zoom function, it also works with touch gestures, etc) and it's absolutely fantastic! It's by far the best part of OS X in my opinion. That's one of my major gripes with Win7: not replacing Flip3D for something like that which is actually useful instead of just slowing you down.

[xpclient]

Well everyone has different preferences. and that is why it is so important and Windows remain configurable, customizable and tweakable, so everyone can work the way he wants.

I found Flip3D extremely useful because it displays *large* previews where you can quickly identify the window. The problem with Windows 7/Vista Alt-Tab is that there too much transparency and the previews are too tiny for me to make out which window I am switching to. I have to look at the icon overlaid on each preview and even then, the text (window title) is not as readable on transparent glass. In contrast, Flip3D's large previews help me instantly identify which window I am switching to. Alt-Tab has another annoyance/bug in Windows 7. It tries to do an "Aero Peek" of the window and tries to switch to it. Added to it is a bug that sometimes the Alt-Tab list itself goes behind the Peeked window, making it unusable.

I have the same problem with Apple's way. The thumbnails are not large enough so if they are multiple similar looking windows of the same app open, I cannot identify which is which (maybe my eyesight is not that good).

Note that Flip 3D (Win+Tab) did not replace Alt-Tab, so you could use what YOU wanted. But in Windows 8, Flip 3D is replaced by just a vertical version of Alt-Tab and it works ONLY in Metro. So if you are running just Desktop apps, here is Microsoft's evil plan to cripple the desktop. Now NOTHING happens when you do Win+Tab while on the Desktop and no Metro is running.

I don't quite like the Windows 7 Taskbar either. I preferred the Vista/XP which has clean separation of running and non-running apps. I use 7+ Taskbar Tweaker, without it, Windows 7 Taskbar is unusable for me. I cannot tolerate one open app on the far left and one open app on the far right and traveling huge distances with the mouse to switch between them. Also, the fact that the apps you start on the Windows 7 Taskbar combine the AppIDs so two windows of the same app are always grouped even if not combined is very annoying. I cannot have Notepad, Firefox, Notepad unless I use 7+TT to change the AppIDs.

The point is: beginning with Vista, 7, 8, MS is breaking long-standing behaviors and removing choices/options which used to be configurable, so you have to work their way only. Everyone cannot work the way he pleases without resorting to third party utilities. E.g. Classic Start menu is gone in Windows 7 because Sinofsky felt it's "time to move on". Who's he to decide this? Let users have the choice like Vista had. He's really a control freak and that is showing now with Windows 8.

[cezar]

xpclient, on 23 October 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

here is Microsoft's evil plan to cripple the desktop

That's why it would be good to make this tread sticky that everybody coming here would see in first place that W8 is seriously crippled

[Servelius]

JorgeA, on 23 October 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Servelius, on 23 October 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

This is Microsoft biggest mistake because Start menu and Flip3D were so succesfully designed, functional, and outstanding that other systems were not even close. Removing them was like throwing to the garbage a piece of art. Both Start and Flip were used and loved by many users, Microsoft should bring them back with SP 1

Flip 3D is by far the coolest feature of Vista/Win7 (IMHO)!! It introduces a measure of FUN into an otherwise sedate business tool.

And of course I use the Start Menu for 95% of my program launches. I find it psychologically unsettling to have a cluttered Desktop, or a Taskbar full of little permanent icons.

--JorgeA

I agree, we want something cooler than just Windows Millenium with a touch screen. Microsoft Start Menu was very helpful, and Flip3D was both functional and nice, it was a brand for both Vista and 7.

JorgeA, on 23 October 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

That's pretty neat, too, Andre (thanks for the link).

I see on their webpage that it requires Vista. I wonder if it will work in Windows 7 or 8?

EDIT: Never mind about Win8 -- the program requires Aero!

--JorgeA

Windows 8 does have Aero which is just as normal Aero but without translucency. Bao's Switcher (http://insentient.net/Index.html) does work in Windows 8, 7, and Vista. Go ahead and try it.

Video demo here: http://www.youtube.c...d&v=MGBKNecRqjk

This Switcher is a good illustration that Flip3D is still possible, someone may come up with a Flip3D replica or rebuild its original code.

xpclient, on 23 October 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Well everyone has different preferences. and that is why it is so important and Windows remain configurable, customizable and tweakable, so everyone can work the way he wants.

I found Flip3D extremely useful because it displays *large* previews where you can quickly identify the window. The problem with Windows 7/Vista Alt-Tab is that there too much transparency and the previews are too tiny for me to make out which window I am switching to. I have to look at the icon overlaid on each preview and even then, the text (window title) is not as readable on transparent glass. In contrast, Flip3D's large previews help me instantly identify which window I am switching to. Alt-Tab has another annoyance/bug in Windows 7. It tries to do an "Aero Peek" of the window and tries to switch to it. Added to it is a bug that sometimes the Alt-Tab list itself goes behind the Peeked window, making it unusable.

Good point, it was an addition to Alt-Tab rather than its replacement. Without the smooth animations it would be as fast as AltTab but not as gorgeous as Flip3D.

I too found it very convenient cycling through large previews, that I could even read them and watch live media content while in Flip mode. That way I could watch and see which of my running tasks finishes first and decide whose window to switch to. Flip3D was fastest switcher ever you could find one working in a 3D environment.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talking about different needs, the majority of users cast their votes in favor of start menu and aero. People even accuse Microsoft of loosing common sence, saying MS were obviously catering to tablet owners with Windows 8, but they should never forget their bread and butter. The desktop market is still huge and Microsoft has a responsibility to service them. Forcing them to use something that they don’t like isn’t exactly good service. And so on.

Obviously Microsoft is a large monopolist who has already well tied up their users by offerring them DirectX and largest software segment for windows platform. This makes us use any OS they release even such as Windows 8 with that abundant Metro, no start menu, without Aero and shadows, which we’ll still have to love. There is no other way to use latest DirectX technology, play modern games and use modern software after a few years when XP and 7 age out.

In other words, it’s our users’ duty to adapt our needs and preferences to Microsoft, not vice versa. Or go MacOS or Linux if we can.

[JorgeA]

CoffeeFiend, on 23 October 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

As for Flip 3D, I've never actually seen anyone who uses it, save for Scott Hanselman when he uses it as a way to make people laugh in his lectures (just hold the buttons and go "Weeeee!" as windows just fly past). It's *far* too slow to react to be usable at all. In 2 really quick keystrokes, alt-tab switches to the previous app. Instantly. Whereas a quick tap of win+tab doesn't actually work, it just partially animates a bunch of large thumbnails appearing on the screen. You have to hold the buttons down and wait so very patiently, then you only fully see one full "thumbnail" at once (unlike alt-tab which shows all thumbnails in full at once), and it also takes forever to change focus after you release the keys. And if you think holding the keys down to make it automatically scroll through the apps is going to be of any help, then you'll quickly realize that by the time you've recognized the "thumbnail" of the app you want, it's scrolled well past it, requiring to very awkwardly win-shift-tab your way back. It's absolutely awful. Completely terrible. It easily adds couple extra seconds or more of pointless delay to a classic alt-tab operation which normally takes like perhaps 50ms. I don't think they could possibly screw it up worse than it is. Alt-tab works FAR quicker and better than win-tab to quickly switch back, and if you have to find the app when you have lots of them open then the taskbar is still faster and works better than Flip3D. It's shamefully bad.

I use Win+Tab and Alt+Tab pretty much interchangeably as the mood strikes me, and honestly I've never noticed any difference in response speed. If anything, I prefer Win+Tab because (as @Servelius says) the bigger thumbnails are easier to tell apart when you're dealing with a bunch of similar-looking windows.

Then again, I never thought to keep the Tab key pressed and make Flip 3D go 'round and 'round!

It's true that if you want to switch quickly between two apps, nothing beats Alt+Tab. But when I have three or more windows open, the quick tap method seems to work for only one pair of windows (the first two on the left). That is, quickly tapping Alt+Tab, twice, won't get me to the third window -- it'll take me back to the window where I started from. If I want to go to a third or fourth or fifth window, I have to pause and keep Alt pressed down while tapping Tab.

Still, bearing in mind its limitations, Alt+Tab is fantastic.

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 24 October 2012 - 09:25 AM

[JorgeA]

Servelius, on 24 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

JorgeA, on 23 October 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

That's pretty neat, too, Andre (thanks for the link).

I see on their webpage that it requires Vista. I wonder if it will work in Windows 7 or 8?

EDIT: Never mind about Win8 -- the program requires Aero!

--JorgeA

Windows 8 does have Aero which is just as normal Aero but without translucency. Bao's Switcher (http://insentient.net/Index.html) does work in Windows 8, 7, and Vista. Go ahead and try it.

Video demo here: http://www.youtube.c...d&v=MGBKNecRqjk

This Switcher is a good illustration that Flip3D is still possible, someone may come up with a Flip3D replica or rebuild its original code.

Thanks for pointing that out! Maybe I will try Switcher in one of the Win8 previews to see what happens.

The video was an effective, well done demonstration.

--JorgeA

This post has been edited by JorgeA: 24 October 2012 - 09:25 AM