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#76
jaclaz

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ETA I feel like I have a problem, I do not know what I am doing, I only do what I am being told but don't know what's going on behind the scenes

Maybe you are not very familiar with the theory and operation of booting a NT based system.

Brief "crash course" :w00t: :
All "MS" Operating System are quite "arrogant".
When you install them they give you NO option but "automagically" take possession of your hard disk and do to it whatever they see fit.
The standard booting sequence (for windows NT up to Server2003) is the following:
BIOS->MBR->active primary partition bootsector-> NTLDR-> BOOT.INI choices -> loading of the NT OS
The BIOS just reads the MBR (first sector of first disk in boot sequence).
The MBR contains CODE (that normally only loads the first sector of the active primary partition in the partition table) and DATA (the partition table, the Disk Signature, the Magic bytes)
The PBR (Partition Boot Record) or VBR (Volume Boot Record) or bootsector is the first sector of the partition loade dby the MBR. It contains as well some DATA (the so called BPB or Bios Parameter Block containng info on the volume, the filesystem, etc.) and some CODE (the code for a NT system load or chainloads NTLDR, we will call this code "NT52" you'll understand later why).

With Vista :ph34r: (and following, like 7) the booting sequence remained the same BUT the actual files involved changed:
BIOS->MBR->active primary partition bootsector-> BOOTMGR-> \boot\BCD[1],[2] choices -> loading of the NT OS
The MBR uses slightly different code, but to the SAME effect (simply loads the first sector of the active primary partition in the partition table)
The PBR has different code that loads BOOTMGR (we will call this code "NT60", you'll understand later why)

[1] Normally when you install Vista :ph34r: or later over a disk that has already a BOOT.INI the choices in there are "imported" automatically in the \boot\BCD, but it depends on the exact way the install was performed (on what was actually "visible" during the install)
[2] The BOOTMGR doesn't read only the \boot\BCD, but also (if existing on the same partition) the BOOT.INI, BUT it "discards" each and every entry involving an arcpath (like multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect) and ONLY reads those pointing to a file (like C:\grldr="grub4dos")

There is an utility bootsect.exe that can be used with parameters:
/NT52 <- this will re-write the PBR CODE (leaving the PBR DATA "as is") with one pointing to NTLDR
/NT60 <- this will re-write the PBR CODE (leaving the PBR DATA "as is") with one pointing to BOOTMGR

Most probably when you re-installed 7 you have hidden the partition where XP was or however the previous XP installation was not detected and was not added to the \boot\BCD.
The PBR CODE was re-written anyway pointing to BOOTMGR.
The "i only get a black and white menu with option of loading Win7 or grub4dos." is likely a "merge" of the contents of the \boot\BCD (ONLY the Windows 7) and of the BOOT.INI (only grub4dos, since arcpaths entries are ignored).

It is easy to verify this, just add to the BOOT.INI a line like:
C:\afakeentry="A Fake Entry"
and see if it is added to the "black and white menu with option of loading Win7 or grub4dos".

If you can re-cap your current situation of disks I might be able to provide specific instructions on how to solve the problem
, in the meantime you can try selecting grub4dos in the choice you get, then press c to get to command prompt and at it:
grub>
type:
root
chainloader /ntldr
boot
pressing [ENTER] after each command.
You should be able to boot to XP "as before" (i.e. see all the choices you have in BOOT.INI.
When you run the "root" command, grub4dos should provide you with the disk/partition number, like (hd0,0), and when you run the "chainloader /ntldr" it should provide info like "Will boot NTLDR from.....". Please jolt down these info before issuing the "boot" command and post them.

jaclaz


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#77
Roffen

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If you can re-cap your current situation of disks I might be able to provide specific instructions on how to solve the problem


Oh no, not before I've studied your crash couse w/instructions. Maybe I'll know what to do the next time!

roffen

#78
Roffen

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I've always made it a point to know what I am talking about and you seem to be of the same kind!

Everything was as predicted, and the XP was OK!

root (hd0,0)
chainloader /ntldr Will boot ntldr drive = 0x80, partition = 0x0 (didn't write down the hidden value)

boot

menu was

XP
XP music
Fake entry
grub4dos

Menu was green, I had added green earlier in my atttempts at sleuthing.
I presume the agent responsible for the merger belongs to Win7?

I suppose what do I do next is bootset /NT60 but I await a go before doing it,
I can manage my system using your method in the meantime.

Edited by Roffen, 24 June 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#79
jaclaz

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I suppose what do I do next is bootset /NT60 but I await a go before doing it,

No, it's the other way round.

The new install of Windows 7 ran ("virtually", what was actually ran was another program):
bootsect.exe  /NT60 C:
the result is that the bootsector is currently of the "NT60 type" that consequently loads BOOTMGR (and from it \boot\BCD).

To "revert" you need to run (from the booted windows 7 and AFTER having verified that the C: drive letter belongs to first partiton of first hard disk, aka the (hd0,0) you got from the grub4dos command):
bootsect.exe  /NT52 C:
the result will be a bootsector of the "NT52 type" that consequently loads NTLDR (and from it BOOT.INI).

Before running it, do read the related articles on technet, though the good guys at MS managed to have an "older" article with a "higher" number and mixed (as usual) the minds of 3/4 to 4/5 of readers by using the (completely wrong) adjective "master" talking of the partition boot record code, do read the comments to this article:
http://technet.micro...7(v=ws.10).aspx
and further mixed mattters with the "7" version of the article (since the new switch /mbr was introduced):
http://technet.micro...7(v=ws.10).aspx

jaclaz

#80
Roffen

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To "revert" you need to run (from the booted windows 7 and AFTER having verified that the C: drive letter belongs to first partiton of first hard disk, aka the (hd0,0) you got from the grub4dos command):


I wil do as you said, I just found the quoted sentence somewhat ambiguous;)

I think what it means is

1.Booting XP, verify that the C: drive letter belongs to first partiton of first hard disk, aka the (hd0,0) you got from the grub4dos command
2. To "revert" you need to run from the booted windows 7: bootsect.exe /NT52 C:

(the result will be a bootsector of the "NT52 type" that consequently loads NTLDR (and from it BOOT.INI).
bootsect.exe /NT52 C:)

Edited by Roffen, 25 June 2013 - 01:04 AM.


#81
jaclaz

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I think what it means is

1.Booting XP, verify that the C: drive letter belongs to first partiton of first hard disk, aka the (hd0,0) you got from the grub4dos command
2. To "revert" you need to run from the booted windows 7: bootsect.exe /NT52 C:

(the result will be a bootsector of the "NT52 type" that consequently loads NTLDR (and from it BOOT.INI).
bootsect.exe /NT52 C:)

No. :no:
Drive letter assignnment may vary depending on which system is booted, it might be the same in your configuration, but you need to make sure that the "right" partition gets the "right" drive letter under the OS under which you will run bootsect.exe (which is the Windows 7), or alternatively change the C: drive letter in the suggested command to the one assigned to the (hd0,0), or, still alternatively, run the command from the XP (it should run as well but you will need to either copy to the XP the bootsect.exe program - which comes with Vista :ph34r: and Windows 7 but that is NOT included in the XP - or run it from a command prompt after having navigated to the Windows 7 System directory).

To recap:
  • there is NOT a bootsect.exe in XP
  • it should run from XP alright nonetheless
  • you need to run it (up to you deciding if running it from XP or 7) with the RIGHT drive letter (the one that is assigned to that partition under the booted os under which you run the tool)

jaclaz

#82
Roffen

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Boot XP: C:
Boot 7: C:

Since no bootsect .exe could be found (Win7 Home Premium), I downloaded one listed as a WIn7 version.

Running from command window generated no message, only return to command prompt, and nothing have changed.

Guess it is kaputt or something funny, no response when I type bootsect /help


Found this but am unable to get WAIK.

bootsect and windows xp
If you're running Windows xp and want bootsect you can get it from the WAIK, it is located at "Windows AIK\Tools\PETools\x86\bootsect.exe". You can then copy it to the "%systemroot%\system32" directory and use it from the command line.

* Yes you need to install WAIK on your computer to get bootsect.exe


Edited by Roffen, 25 June 2013 - 05:26 AM.


#83
jaclaz

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Strange that it is not in Home Premium :unsure:

There is no "real" need to install and not even to download the "full" WAIK, just for the record, it is possible to often get "parts" of it, but it is more complex.
You can do with another tool, bootpart:
http://www.winimage.com/bootpart.htm

Unzip the bootpart.exe in a convenient path, let's say C:\bootpart.
Boot to the XP.
Open a command prompt and navigate to c:\bootpart (or whatever).
issue the command:
BOOTPART
(without parameters), you should see a list of the drives, then run:
BOOTPART WINNT BOOT:C:


No WAIT, your volume is NTFS, right?
Then bootpart will not do.

You'll need to either download the whole WAIK or use the httpdisk driver, see:
http://reboot.pro/to...ole-waik-first/
http://reboot.pro/to...first/?p=114118

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 25 June 2013 - 06:09 AM.


#84
Roffen

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Uh-oh, looks pretty messy.
And in the end, I don't find any WAIK for XP.
And bootsect doesn't work in WIn7?
And I might try the version I have with /help on another WIn7 installation just to find out if it is a Home version problem.
And ...

#85
Roffen

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All right, I found the options very cumbersome and would require more work than simply getting the entier pack.
So I downloaded, burned DVD and setup with install of .NET Framework and msxml 6.0.
Installe WAIK on aonther drive, didnt want all that mess on the SSD, found the 32bit version of bootsect and am now going to test if it reponds to /help,
then I'll have to find out if I should use 52 or 60. (On XP, first partition).

All right, much ado but not for nothing; i hope. This time it responded to /help. Hooray!

recap:

I will run - as I have to, under XP.
There I type bootsect /NT52 C:

C: is the root of partition wher XP was installed.
C: also is the root of the partition where Win 7 was - and is - installed.

But I do nothing till i hear from you... Am scared and don't think prayers work on computers. Maybe they will on quantum computers; they are right around the corner. With a capacity matching that of the whole universe. Why not, we already have desktop particle accelerators.

Edited by Roffen, 25 June 2013 - 09:33 AM.


#86
jaclaz

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You still seem to be not fully "convinced" or have fully grasped the concepts, trying to be more explicit.

You can run bootsect from either of XP or 7, as long as that drive is the one which gets the letter C:.

As a matter of fact, there is NO WAIK for XP (and if it were it would not contain bootsect.exe), bootsect.exe was evidently developed AFTER XP (because all NT based systems up to XP/2003 ONLY used the "NT52" bootsector code) in order to fix the possible issue that Vista :ph34r: (which is the first NT based OS using the "NT60") install may cause.

By pure chance the bootsect.exe that you got (from the Windows 7 WAIK) runs as well in prior systems (both Vista :ph34r: and XP), but it was "designed" to run under 7.

Since now when you boot you get to the BOOTMGR->\boot\BCD choices, you have NOW the NT60 bootsector and you want to CHANGE that to the NT52 one, so that instead when booting you get to the NTLDR->BOOT.INI choices.

To recap, if you run:
bootsect /NT60 C:
NOTHING will change as the command will re-write over your current bootsector code an identical one.
if you run:
bootsect /NT52 C:
the bootsect.exe will replace your current bootsector code with the one invoking NTLDR (which is what you want).

jaclaz

#87
Roffen

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Good, I think i've absorbed most of what that, and it seems there was nothing to be afraid of, it is always posible to revert from 60 to 52 and vice versa?

#88
jaclaz

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Good, I think i've absorbed most of what that, and it seems there was nothing to be afraid of, it is always posible to revert from 60 to 52 and vice versa?

Yes, as long as you can boot :angel :whistle: .

But don' t worry :) you are set in such a way that you can always boot *something* :yes: with any of the two bootsector codes in effect.

And even in the case of Murphy's Law events, like (say) a power outage in the exact split millisecond the code is being written to the disk, there is always a way back by booting to the Windows 7 DVD, or to a USB stick, etc.

jaclaz

#89
Roffen

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I believe an aging brain is responsible for some difficulty in getting a clear picture from written explanations. Much of what I was doing in my life before the Intel 4004 used lots of diagrams.
I would like to make (may even try)some diagrams of what is located where and how it relates to it's surroundings in the boot process and (as with multiboot) how they may be inter-related to other, neighbouring "entities" in the same clade.
(A group of organisms, such as a species, whose members share homologous features derived from a common ancestor.)
Or something like that.

Edited by Roffen, 26 June 2013 - 02:03 AM.


#90
jaclaz

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I believe an aging brain is responsible for some difficulty in getting a clear picture from written explanations. Much of what I was doing in my life before the Intel 4004 used lots of diagrams.
I would like to make (may even try)some diagrams of what is located where and how it relates to it's surroundings in the boot process and (as with multiboot) how they may be inter-related to other, neighbouring "entities" in the same clade.

Well there are a few pre-made ones.
Looky here:
http://www.multiboot.../multiboot.html

jaclaz

#91
Roffen

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I have installed WinXP  and Win7 on two different disks, in both cases with just that one disk connected furing install.

 

I think maybe I shoud have done it differently, but if I knew how I suppsose it should be possible to create a dual boot system

 

So I looked at an earlier post

 

"Do this test:

  • add grldr to first partition
  • add to the BOOT.INI in first partition a line: C:\grldr="grub4dos"
  • when booting, select "grub4dos" and you will get to the grub> prompt
  • at it type (without double quotes): "find --set-root /bootmgr" and press [ENTER]
  • then: "root" [ENTER] <- you should have here (hd0,1) as feedback
  • then: "chainloader /bootmgr" [ENTER]
  • then "boot" [ENTER]
  • and the windows 7 on second partition should boot normally"

but I am not getting anywhere. Adding the grldr line to boot.ini is of no use, the line gets shifted to the bottom of the file and I suppose that makes it useless.

 

I have grldr and a grub4dos zipfile that I think must be the one I've used before.

 

I presume to begin with that I only have to worry about the first, XP-drive.



#92
jaclaz

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Well, no real need to suppose,  "adding" means "adding at the bottom".

 

If you prefer, edit the BOOT.INI in such a way that it's last line reads:

C:\grldr="grub4dos"

 

 

Or, given that your current one looks like this:

 

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect

 

Edit it so that it looks like this:

 

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect
C:\grldr="grub4dos"

 

 

At next boot, no matter if you are currently booting the XP (through the NTLDR) or the 7 (through BOOTMGR) you should have an added choice to choose "grub4dos".

Make sure that the BOOT.INI has a decent timeout value, like 10 seconds or more.

 

jaclaz



#93
Roffen

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Nice to see you're still here jaclaz!

 

And maybe a miracle that I still am as well.

 

I gshoudl apologize but I messed up. I was attempting to work on my 'old' computer that already was working satisfactorily even if the boot process got a little messed up du to some problems long ago. but it works and that's what counts.

 

The problem was that I keep movong the VGA cable between the old and the newer machine I am setting up and was not awqre that i worked on the wrong machine.

 

But I am happy to report that I follwed the instructions quoted slavishly, and evruthing wotked just the way it should, to my great relief.

 

I have had a terrible time for the past month; I was stupid enough to buy a secondhand motherboard and it gave me a lot of problems that i was not prepared for and they have not been good for me, I will after all soon be 85. I had planned on upgradign the old 'puter but i was smart enough not even to make an attempt so I got a secondhand Corsair cabinet that made it possblle to manipulate stuff with ease, and with this last triumph of mine - thanks to your old instructions I now have it going the way I love to use.

 

Nice to see your'e still available in case of distress but I think the worst is over now and I can startr using the new setup for the project I have in mind.

 

I felt like having a nervous breakdown this morning but with the help of a Valium now and then  (and I not in the habit of munching any drugs!) I seem to be able to keep it in check until I regain what strengths I still have.

 

Thanks a lot for all you've done for me! Reading tutorials on how to implement mulitboot is a it ever my hesd, too much to deal with at one time so you brief test setup was a godsend.

 

With that, the best of luck for you and yours from me here in Norway! Drive carefully and you may grow even older than me, I only hope the future will see a world coming back to the good old times when nobody would think such an absurd thought that police in Norway should be armed.

 

Cheerio, Rolf



#94
jaclaz

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No prob :),

happy to see you are not only well :thumbup, but still having the will (or recklessness   ;) ) of experimenting with new old PC's. :yes:

 

jaclaz


Edited by jaclaz, 26 February 2015 - 01:24 PM.


#95
monroe

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Roffen ... Well with what you posted ...  "I will after all soon be 85" ... you were able to get things figured out! ... I've read what jaclaz has posted (twice) and I have no idea what he's talking about. 

 

I guess I need to get a little older to gain more wisdom !

 

I should be greatful I don't have this problem ... probably would have to throw my computer away.

 

monroe



#96
Roffen

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Allright I think I have discovered what mistakes I've been making, missing some spaces in typinge the grub commands.

 

Now, at the grub> prompt I type

find root ...

and the return is hd1,1 , which is the 2nd drive, with Win7 installed. 1st drive is the primary boot disk with XP installed.

 

then chainloader /bootmgr, where I missed the space and got an error msg.

Now  I get (hd1,1)

and chainloader /bootmgr follwed with boot boots the 2nd, Win7 disk.

 

Voila!

 

 

What is missing and needs to be fixed before I can get the win7 disk to boot from the menu?

 

Here are the contents of the two roots:

 

First drive (XP) root:

A              C:\asusdisp.log
A              C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT
A  SHR     C:\boot.ini
A              C:\CONFIG.SYS
A              C:\grldr
A  SHR     C:\IO.SYS
A  SHR     C:\MSDOS.SYS
A  SHR     C:\NTDETECT.COM
A  SHR     C:\ntldr
A  SH       C:\pagefile.sys


2nd drive (Win7) root:
A             E:\autoexec.bat
A  SHR    E:\bootmgr
A  SHR    E:\BOOTSECT.BAK
A             E:\config.sys
A  SH      E:\hiberfil.sys
A  SHR    E:\IO.SYS
A  SHR    E:\MSDOS.SYS
A  SHR    E:\NTDETECT.COM
A  SHR    E:\ntldr
A  SH      E:\pagefile.sys


Edited by Roffen, 28 February 2015 - 02:13 AM.


#97
jaclaz

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It's just a matter of adding (or editing) the entries in menu.lst according to what works in command line, like, as we saw on post #68:

http://www.msfn.org/...rder/?p=1041375

 

Probably you want to have:

 

 

title boot XP from first disk

root (hd0,0)

chainloader /ntldr

 

 

title boot 7 from second disk

root (hd1,1)

chainloader /bootmgr

 

 

jaclaz



#98
Roffen

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I am beaten.

 

Wouldn't the sensible thing be to scratch both drives, then with both drives connected all the time install XP and Win7, in that order on the respective drive? Wouldn't that result in a situation where there's very little that needs to be done to get what I want?


Edited by Roffen, 02 March 2015 - 02:44 AM.


#99
jaclaz

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Well, there are several ways to obtain in the end the result, but what is the problem with adding a menu.lst to the root of first disk (where grldr is)? :unsure:

 

jaclaz



#100
Roffen

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I am afraid I have messed it all up. I removed the menu.lst and this now is the root of XP disk:

 

A             C:\asusdisp.log
A             C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT
A  SH       C:\boot.ini
A             C:\bootini.txt
A             C:\CONFIG.SYS
A             C:\grldr
A  SHR    C:\IO.SYS
A  SHR    C:\MSDOS.SYS
A  SHR    C:\NTDETECT.COM
A  SHR    C:\ntldr
A  SH      C:\pagefile.sys
 

 

Win7 disk:

 

A              E:\autoexec.bat
A  SHR     E:\bootmgr
A  SHR     E:\BOOTSECT.BAK
A              E:\config.sys
A  SH        E:\hiberfil.sys
A  SHR     E:\IO.SYS
A  SHR     E:\MSDOS.SYS
A  SHR     E:\NTDETECT.COM
A  SHR     E:\ntldr
 

First boot shows not boot.ini but shows two identical lines, "Windows default" and they will boot XP.

 

Is there a way that I can clean up whatever mess I've made on the XP disk?






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