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Now they're chopping up the Start Button's bones


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#1
JorgeA

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This deserves its own thread. Here's one possible answer to our speculations from recent posts in the "Deepr Impresions" thread, regarding Microsoft's attitude toward its desktop and/or business customers:

Despite my recent attempt to categorize what’s coming in Windows 8 for businesses -- and, seriously, it’s not a bad list -- it’s become increasingly clear to me that Microsoft doesn’t actually expect businesses to upgrade to this new system in any meaningful way. I believe that the software giant is taking a pass on businesses for this release, a calculated risk that enables it to more firmly focus on the consumer market that's on the cusp of slipping through its fingers thanks to Apple and, to a much lesser extent, Android.

Thurrott continues his excellent analysis:

The second is Microsoft’s last-minute decision to destroy the Windows desktop and replace its user interface-- excuse me, “user experience” -- with one that (sort of but not really) resembles Metro. As I wrote in "Windows 8 Release Preview: RIP, Aero (2003-2012)," this move reeks of poor product management, especially when you consider that I’ve been told several times that a Microsoft goal for Windows 8 was that it could be easily deployed side by side with Windows 7 in businesses since the two (desktop) environments would be so similar. And they have been, so far. But with the Aero-based desktop giving way to a white, flat, and weird looking theme that, no, doesn’t look a thing like Metro, Microsoft is instead giving in to its consumer instincts with this release.

And now for the pièce de résistance -- Microsoft having destroyed and buried the Start Button and Start Menu, they've been busily salting the soil around these traditional features to prevent all possibiity of bringing them back:

Related to this second point is information I’ve received that Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor. In fact, I’ve seen that several well-known UI hacks that worked fine with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview are no longer functional in the coming Release Preview. And those with hopes that Microsoft would allow businesses, at least, to boot directly to the desktop should prepare for disappointment. That feature not only isn’t happening, it’s being removed from Windows Server 12 (Windows 8’s stable mate) as well.

:realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad:
OK, that does it. No Windows 8 for me. If Microsoft doesn't show better respect for its customers come Windows 9, then Linux becomes a real possibility in this corner.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 29 May 2012 - 10:09 PM.



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#2
xpclient

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Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor. In fact, I've seen that several well-known UI hacks that worked fine with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview are no longer functional in the coming Release Preview.


Now if this is true, then it's just too much. I wonder if by "third parties that bring back Start menu", he means our Classic Shell because Thurrott did cover Classic Shell on his "Windows Weekly" gossipy podcast. I guess once the Release Preview arrives in first week of June we will know soon enough. But evil has been reborn inside Microsoft and it needs to be destroyed!! :realmad: Avada Kedavra!

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Edited by xpclient, 30 May 2012 - 07:23 AM.

Impossible to run NT6 without third party fixes.


#3
tsampikos

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That's what Linux and MAC comminities read and thank God for the unexpected gift! No Windows 8 for me either if that's the case. If Microsoft wants to commit suicide, it should do it without us....

#4
jaclaz

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Some "random" considerations.

Once upon a time the good MS guys made available DOS (and Windows 3.x).
Then time passed and at a certain point they did understand that DOS (and Windows 3.x) was not suitable anymore for some corporate uses, and made NT (3.1/3.5 and finally 4.0).
Then came WIn95.
The idea at the time was clear:
  • have the NT family for the "business".
  • have the DOS/WIn9x family for "home users".

Windows 2000 was a bettered NT 4.0, actually better, reserved to "business use", Windows ME a bettered WIn98, only worse, reserved to "home users".

The "deviation" came with XP (a bettered Win2K, only worse ;)).

For the first time EXACTLY (please let's not discuss the senseless and very minor differences between XP Professional and Home edition, whih are much more "commercial" than "technical", like the various editions of NT 4 an 2K were before, tweakNT being the living proof of this) the same OS was "pushed" to both kinds of "end users" (and BTW Server 2003 is a bettered 2000, actually better):
  • business users were "forced" to have a somehow "less-secure-than-2K" OS
  • home users were "forced" to have completely meaningless for them "features" such as authorized login, NTFS with ACL, Quotas and what not

The decision, like it or not, makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint, instead of needing to support and develop two largely different "codebases", you had to support only one (though they failed to have this fully implemented, and there were some issues of "portability" from the "base XP" to the "Server 2003" OS).

No need to talk about Vista :ph34r:.

Windows 7 is/was another step in the same direction, though I am far less familiar with this OS and it's Server 2008 R2 counterpart then I am with earlier versions, from what I can see the differences between the two are reduced when compared to previous corresponding versions. (talking about the numberless and senseless versions of Windows 7 - all evidently motivated by commercial reasons would be a digresssion).

So, in the "old days" there were two completely different kinds of users which were little by little forced to use the "same" OS.

Until, say, XP, the hardware available to each group was substantially the same as well as the software (meaning not so much the actual programs, but rather the "scope" of the programs) and the usage paradigm was also very similar.

At the office, you used a word processor, a spreadsheet, and one or more very vertical app (possibly written in FORTRAN or COBOL), later some e-mail program and a browser were added.
A reduced subset of the "corporate users" might have used a graphical program, let's say conventionally either of Photoshop or AutoCAD.
At home, you used a word processor to write (completely useless) letters complaining to the municipality for this or that, a spreadsheet to keep your bank account balance, a graphical app to remove red eyes from the poorly shot photos you took, later an e-mail program and a browser were added (and the municipality saved a lot of money by directly deleting your protests from the server without producing the huge amount of waste paper as before, and you lost a lot of sleep hours by browsing the internet in the night).

Then came the "broadband" internet and the multimedia, so you spent most time at the office trying to download through your employer's faster connection all kind of software you won't ever need and sending to all you ever increasing e-mail contacts funny (mostly actually NOT funny) videos you got from the internet.
At home you spent all your time looking for more NOT funny videos, to get some (usually LOTS) of free p0rn, and the like.
Then you started converting all your VHS and Vynil to digital (and this kept you busy for some time), and downloading all the MP3's and moviesyou could get your hands on.
For the record most of the above were lost forever in a hard disk crash, those that survived you cannot anyway find anymore as they are backed up "somewhere" and you cannot find anymore those CD0s, DVD's, disks, whatever where you surely have them (a situation NOT much different from all the other stuff you have in your basement or attic or your lost during your last move).

Now, you have different devices:
  • A desktop at the office.
  • A laptop at home.
  • A smartphone that -between ringing for incoming calls - keeps beeping and senselessly forwarding you all e-mails.
  • A tablet.

The idea (completely senseless of course) is that you should be able to do the "same" things on all these different devices, and eventually have only one: a tablet.
Yes, I have seen the "tablet" version of AutoCAD on the iPad, I won't comment on the usability, set apart "pure browsing" of .dwg's.....

To do the same things on all these devices, the way the good MS guys chose was to "dumb down" the "better working" ones so that your "experience" will be the same on each of those.
For a very large part of the user base (those that passively use whatever they can get from the internet - made/produced by the minority of the "active users") this is an advantage.
For the very smaller part of the user base (those that actually "work" and create things) it is a big nuisance.

But again, from a purely business standpoint, it makes sense.

If you have a product that is (in theory) suited to (say) 95% of the target and is a big PITA for the remaining (say) 5%, would you discard it in favour of continuing your old product that suited the minority but was increasingly - no matter if rightfully or wrongly - frowned upon by the majority that wowed at the iPhone first and then is now wowing at the iPad?
Same kind of people that would say "Isn't it cute?" ;)

So, the point is, what will the "active" 5% (if you prefer the very few that actually "work") do ? :unsure::
  • keep hang to the "old" OS and continue producing *something*
  • change OS to another one and continue producing *something*
  • stop being active (what the heck, I'm done with this)
  • ...

jaclaz

#5
Joseph_sw

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the best an individual can to is to vote against metro-for-desktop with his/her wallet.
if there enough mass of individuals, that could also veto against OEM/Microsoft contracts, afterall OEM need the money from end-users.

so, start a very loud campaigns against metro for desktop.
begin now, as theres very little would actually wow-ing at metro for desktop.

#6
Tripredacus

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I have a complaint about all the talk about how a company would use Windows 8. So far, the only products available so far have been Developer's Preview and Consumer Preview. Consumer Preview is an equivalent release as to the retail/OEM versions of "regular" and Pro versions. There has been no publically released version of Windows 8 Enterprise Beta. Microsoft already doesn't want companies to be using the retail equivalent versions of Windows 7 (Home Premium, Pro, Ultimate) in the Enterprise as they are not licensed as such. We get a lot of customers that buy these wrong versions of Windows for business use, then complain why things can't be done for them. Its because its the wrong SKU. Seeing people complain about how businesses are getting shafted because they see themselves adopting the consumer versions of Windows just shows how some of these writers (and companies) are still living in the past.

I do not currently have access Windows 8 Enterprise builds so I can't compare to see how they are different.
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#7
jaclaz

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I do not currently have access Windows 8 Enterprise builds so I can't compare to see how they are different.

That's good :), as it means that we can play a bit on the "still unknown" ;).

As I see it there are two possibilities,either
  • the Enterprise and "end user" versions will be VERY similar (and this would be logical and consequent with the trend I attempted to highlight: "same size fits all")
    or
  • the Enterprise and "end user" versions will be VERY UNlike (and this could mean either a return to the duality between DOS and NT of the past or to the need of "different training" for personnel, that will have in the office a "different" OS - actually just the interface to it - from what they are used to and familiar with at home)

In both cases it sounds to me like a no-win/no-win situation for the actual customers, no matter if "Corporate" or "Home" :ph34r:.

jaclaz

#8
MagicAndre1981

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I do not currently have access Windows 8 Enterprise builds so I can't compare to see how they are different.


Enterprise = Pro + 6 features:

http://windowsteambl...-workforce.aspx
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Tripredacus

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I have seen that list. My first thought about MDOP... what if the virtualized desktop was a Win8 with Metro? :lol:
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#10
JorgeA

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Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor. In fact, I've seen that several well-known UI hacks that worked fine with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview are no longer functional in the coming Release Preview.


Now if this is true, then it's just too much. I wonder if by "third parties that bring back Start menu", he means our Classic Shell because Thurrott did cover Classic Shell on his "Windows Weekly" gossipy podcast.

xpclient,

No doubt that's exactly what Thurrott means -- you and everyone else who's developed a replacement for the Metro Start Screen. MS is trying to make it impossible to re-create the Start Button/Menu. It was already harder in the Consumer Preview than in the Developer Preview, now it sounds like they're finishing the job.

Here's hoping that experts such as yourself will be able to find some way to bring back the Start Menu anyway.

--JorgeA

#11
Fredledingue

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For a very large part of the user base (those that passively use whatever they can get from the internet - made/produced by the minority of the "active users") this is an advantage.
For the very smaller part of the user base (those that actually "work" and create things) it is a big nuisance.

But again, from a purely business standpoint, it makes sense.

If you have a product that is (in theory) suited to (say) 95% of the target and is a big PITA for the remaining (say) 5%, would you discard it in favour of continuing your old product that suited the minority but was increasingly - no matter if rightfully or wrongly - frowned upon by the majority that wowed at the iPhone first and then is now wowing at the iPad?
Same kind of people that would say "Isn't it cute?"

__________________

I strongly disagre with this.
While it made perfect sens to get XP and the following version for both business and home, it doesn't with w8.

Read this to know why:
__________________

I have a complaint about all the talk about how a company would use Windows 8. So far, the only products available so far have been Developer's Preview and Consumer Preview. Consumer Preview is an equivalent release as to the retail/OEM versions of "regular" and Pro versions. There has been no publically released version of Windows 8 Enterprise Beta. Microsoft already doesn't want companies to be using the retail equivalent versions of Windows 7 (Home Premium, Pro, Ultimate) in the Enterprise as they are not licensed as such. We get a lot of customers that buy these wrong versions of Windows for business use, then complain why things can't be done for them. Its because its the wrong SKU. Seeing people complain about how businesses are getting shafted because they see themselves adopting the consumer versions of Windows just shows how some of these writers (and companies) are still living in the past.

__________________

The main flaw with a "W8 Home" interface radicaly different from a "W8 Corporate" is that poeple use both constantly.
They are on the computer at work, they are again on it at home.
You can't ask poeple to move twice a day from one world to another. Poeple want to see the same Taskbar, Start Menu and Desktop they see at home, at work and vice versa.

+ MS made abundantly clear that this was the future of computer experience. I can't imagine how they could embrace co-existance between Metro and Classic on the long term.
Already such co-existance between old classic-enabled machine and the new, disabled ones will be particularly difficult at the beginning.
Things will only getting worse as some poeple in some place will have the classic Start Menu and others left with Metro.

This alone makes the Metro concept not viable beyond a few weeks after it's commercialy released.

But there is worse:
As Tripedacus pointed out, a lot of professionals use a Home version of windows because of cost.
But they also do work at home on their home computer.

MS dangerousely underestimates the seriouseness with which poeple use their "leisure" computer.
For most poeple, a computer is a serious thing, not a gadget like a cellphone or an mp3 set.
Especialy with laptops, poeple like to look smart when they use it and others are looking.
Having Metro poping up will be a shameful degradation to non-pro world. It will be a big screaming "Look everybody how I'm an amateur".

I mean... you don't treat poeple like this with their computers.
When you buy a car, wether is for business or personal use, you want it to look elegant, not like a giant baby toy.
Same with computer. Metro will make a ridicule of the PC users. They won't appreciate.
________________________

Windows 8 has to offer and the no-compromise business tablet that will mean businesses no longer have to choose between the functionality of a tablet or the productivity of a PC.

Does that mean, only functionality of a tablet will be available? LOL
___________________________

Edited by Fredledingue, 30 May 2012 - 04:31 PM.

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#12
Fredledingue

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Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor. In fact, I've seen that several well-known UI hacks that worked fine with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview are no longer functional in the coming Release Preview.

While they are at it, they could make windows 7 and Vista updates which disable the Start Menu and force Metro on previous version of windows with automatic update enabled.

That would be funny to watch.

Personaly I'm not even worried.

The W8/Metro experience will be very short lived.
I bet that they will remove the product from the shelves after two months.
MSFT stocks losing half their value in days will be the catalyst.

Why should we worry about a piece of crap nobody will buy, or if they buy will return it to the store?

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#13
CoffeeFiend

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That's what Linux and MAC comminities read and thank God for the unexpected gift! No Windows 8 for me either if that's the case. If Microsoft wants to commit suicide, it should do it without us....

I very much agree. Apple didn't really need this fiasco (they're swimming in money and their customer base just keeps expanding) but I'm sure they welcome the move. They should make apple ads which just say "No Metro" or "Metro-free". That alone would sell loads of Macs.

Once upon a time the good MS guys made available DOS (and Windows 3.x).
[lots more text here]
No need to talk about Vista :ph34r:.

That was a nice opinion piece, but it was basically free from cold hard facts. For what it's worth, I'd pretty much argue the complete inverse ;)

Yes, I have seen the "tablet" version of AutoCAD on the iPad, I won't comment on the usability, set apart "pure browsing" of .dwg's.....

Same for the tablet version of Photoshop. Less than 1% of the features, not usable for what you'd typically use Photoshop for. Same goes for all office suites (or PDF readers) I've seen on any portable device. It's not like we're going to seriously edit documents by typing on a screen.

To do the same things on all these devices, the way the good MS guys chose was to "dumb down" the "better working" ones so that your "experience" will be the same on each of those.
For a very large part of the user base (those that passively use whatever they can get from the internet - made/produced by the minority of the "active users") this is an advantage.
For the very smaller part of the user base (those that actually "work" and create things) it is a big nuisance.

But again, from a purely business standpoint, it makes sense.

If anything, that's incredibly short sighted. Soon enough, the 5% that actually does actual work on computersd and creates content/software/etc leaves for another platform (no, we're definitely NOT going to use this trash!) Then all you're left with is a dumb photo viewer/web-browser OS meant for those who don't do much with a computer (and nobody producing anything for it anymore). That's also the use case where the OS matters the least as this stuff can easily be done on any other OS (and arguably better on Apple iDevices and its gazillion of high quality apps, but then again even Android has a huge lead there). That would just make their OS entirely irrelevant & pointless, and also helping people to transition to another OS by killing lock-in altogether. They're essentially giving the finger to everyone who needs it for work or for legacy/compatibility/lock-in reasons, to cater only to the iPad crowd (who most likely won't want of it anyway). How could this possibly go wrong?

the best an individual can to is to vote against metro-for-desktop with his/her wallet.

We definitely will. I wouldn't want of it for free, so there's no way I'm actually going to pay for this. I'll gladly pay extra for a Win7 upgrade though.

The W8/Metro experience will be very short lived.

I have the same feeling. No worries yet. Just sit back and enjoy the show, watching the disaster unfold in slow motion. The shareholders will most likely ensure that the same kind of fiasco can't possibly happen once more with Win9.
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#14
jaclaz

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I strongly disagre with this.
While it made perfect sens to get XP and the following version for both business and home, it doesn't with w8.

Read this to know why:


Well, you READ my reply to it, there are only two possible cases ;) (after all you are not disagreeing ;))

jaclaz

#15
andreaborman

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Look,lets not cry before we are hurt. Remember when Windows 8 Consumer Preview came out,a lot of start menu software did not work .Neither did Classic Shell until it was updated to work with Windows 8 CP. Now we have Start menu 7, Vista Start menu and other software working in Windows 8 CP. And now there has been some new software made. And there is now a Ribbon Disabler from Win Aero to boot.

When Windows 8 RP is released the Windows start menu will be very much in demand.and the makers of Classic Shell and other start menu software will not want to loose business. So they will want to update their software to work with the new Windows 8. As one day everyone will have to upgrade to the latest version of Windows when Windows 7 is no longer supported or you cannot buy Windows 7 any more.

I myself have got the Windows XP start button and start menu on my desktop on Windows 8 CP. The Metro start menu still runs in the background.But I hardly ever use it,using the Windows XP start menu instead.It's not that i cannot use the Metro start menu,I can now. But I prefer to access the start menu directly from my desktop rather than the start screen. and also the Windows XP or windows 7 start menu is more customisable and familiar to me. as it is to most people.

I also think we should wait a week or two before installing Windows 8 RP. As then we can get familiar with it by reading tutorials on the web on how to use it. For example I did not know when I first installed Windows 8 CP,that I had to swipe the start screen, not click it, to log in. But I know now from reading the tutorials on the web.There may be some other changes in Windows 8 RP which we will have to learn. So it is a good idea to wait a week or so and read up and learn about it first. Then when we install Windows RP,at least we will know what to expect.
Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.

#16
JorgeA

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Andrea,

I second your idea of waiting a few days before installing Windows 8 RP. In my case I have a machine with Windows 7 and Developer Preview partitions, plus a CP VHD. I'll wait to see if it's possible to run a second VHD as well, this time for the RP.

Regarding the Start Menu and Button, the concern (as reported in the link, up there in the original post) is that Microsoft is trying to root out all code that makes things such as Classic Shell even possible. I'm hoping that they fail. ;)

Welcome to MSFN!

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 31 May 2012 - 11:40 AM.


#17
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Well I only read today on the web from some websites, that Microsoft wants to try to stop third party software from bringing back the start button and Windows start menu in Windows 8 RP. If or not this is true I don't know, but I hope it is not. Because I can't work with out my Windows XP or Windows 7 start menu. As the Metro start menu is not the same at all. It does not show all of the programs like the Windows 7 start menu does.It's just not the same.

But I hope if it is true, that software makers like Classic Shell and others will find away to override this.So that Classic Shell and other start menu software will still work on Windows 8 RP and future versions.Surly Microsoft cannot disable third party start menu programs from working completely on Windows 8? There must be a way round this,I hope. As it will be very difficult for me and other Windows users to manage with just the Metro start menu. Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.

#18
MagicAndre1981

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ClassicShell still works:

Attached File  Win8_RP_ClassicShell.png   535.7KB   39 downloads
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#19
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ClassicShell still works

...for now. These latest changes aren't in the RP, much like getting rid of Aero.

I find it sort of hilarious that new ISOs are out and I'm not excited one bit (it's the first time this happens with any OS ever). I don't even plan on downloading it. Why would I anyway? Just to see exactly how badly they managed to to screw it up?
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#20
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[quote]name='MagicAndre1981' timestamp='1338497804' post='999623']
ClassicShell still works:[/quote]


I have just found out,Windows 8 Release Preview is now available for download on the Microsoft website. And you can download it right now.

But the question is does Classic Shell still work on the new Windows 8 Release Preview? I am afraid to try the Release Preview at this point in time, until I know if or not I can use an third party start menu software like Classic Shell on the new Windows 8 RP.

So the question is who is going to be brave enough to go first to install Windows 8 RP? Andrea Borman.

Edited by andreaborman, 31 May 2012 - 03:45 PM.

Andrea Borman.

#21
bphlpt

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Yes Andrea, the pic that Andre provided shows that Classic Shell still works for Windows 8 Release Preview ... for now.

Cheers and Regards

Posted Image


#22
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Yes,I have just seen a post on another Windows 8 forum and that poster wrote that Classic Shell DOES WORK on Windows 8 Release Preview.
See here-My link

So the problem is solved and all that worry was for nothing.

So all I have got to do now is to go ahead and install the new Windows 8 RP,when I am ready. Which won't be today as it is going to be a lot of work installing the OS and reinstalling all my software again. But now, I and other Windows users know that we can have our start button and Windows 7 or Windows XP start menu on Windows 8 RP.Using Classic Shell or other start menu software like we did on Windows 8 Consumer Preview.Which is very good news.

And by the way, you can still carry on using Windows 8 CP until January 2013.And Windows 8 RP is also until January 2013. So you have a choice of which version of Windows 8 to use.

But why did other people post on the web that we could not use Classic Shell or other start menu software in Windows 8 RP?

Yours and other peoples post proves they were wrong . Other websites should get their facts right before worrying people with misinformation like that.

But thank you for letting us know that Classic Shell works on Windows 8 RP. And as the RP is the RC of Windows 8 it will be very much like the final version of Windows 8. That will go out on sale to the public. So we should be able to carry on using Classic Shell in the final version of Windows 8. Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.

#23
CoffeeFiend

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But why did other people post on the web that we could not use Classic Shell or other start menu software in Windows 8 RP?

I've don't recall anyone saying it won't work in the RP. That code and other things like Aero are being removed now, so you will see those changes in the final version.

as the RP is the RC of Windows 8 it will be very much like the final version of Windows 8

It's not an RC. They're still doing changes. Even MS said themselves on their blog that some of their latest changes wouldn't be in the RP and I doubt they're done working on it either.

I wouldn't take Classic Shell running on Win8 RTM for granted yet. Not that I even care anymore (about Win8 I mean, not the start menu)
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#24
JorgeA

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Andrea,

I concur with CoffeeFiend. The reports are that Microsoft is currently in the process of removing Windows code that makes Classic Shell possible. So, while we are still able to enjoy that feature in the Release Preview, we shouldn't count on still being able to do so when the final, commercial version of Windows 8 comes out in the fall.

Therefore, unless xpclient (or someone as expert as him) devises a new way to bring back the Start Menu/Button, all we can say is: enjoy while it lasts!

--JorgeA

#25
MagicAndre1981

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But the question is does Classic Shell still work on the new Windows 8 Release Preview?


yes look at the Buildnumber. 8400 = RP.

But why did other people post on the web that we could not use Classic Shell or other start menu software in Windows 8 RP?


Paul Thurrott wants traffic for his site? I don't know.
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