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Now they're chopping up the Start Button's bones


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#26
andreaborman

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[quote]name='JorgeA' timestamp='1338531881' post='999673']
Andrea,

I concur with CoffeeFiend. The reports are that Microsoft is currently in the process of removing Windows code that makes Classic Shell possible. So, while we are still able to enjoy that feature in the Release Preview, we shouldn't count on still being able to do so when the final, commercial version of Windows 8 comes out in the fall.

Therefore, unless xpclient (or someone as expert as him) devises a new way to bring back the Start Menu/Button, all we can say is: enjoy while it lasts!

--JorgeA[/quote]


I have just come from the Classic Shell forums and they too have confirmed from another poster who has installed Windows 8 RP that Classic Shell is working on Windows 8 RP.Here-My link

So whoever wrote those posts on the web telling us that we won't be able to use third party software in Windows 8 RP to get the start button and Windows XP or Windows 7 start menu back is wrong. And it is simply not true and the information is deliberately misleading.

So I now look forward to trying the new Windows 8 RP when I get the time to install it. with Classic Shell of course. There are several other start menu software's that work on Windows 8. But Classic Shell is the best one as it has many customisation options and their start menu's look identical to the real Windows XP and Windows 7 start menu,with a few extra features thrown in.

The RTM is the version that will go out on sale in the shops,am I right about this?

But it is probably true that Microsoft prefer us not to use a third party software to bring back the start button and Windows 7 start menu. But if you want the Windows 7 start menu as a lot of Windows users and I do.Then you can use third party start menu software on Windows 8,including on the RP version. And as the RP version is very close to how the final release will be.It is unlikely that the final version will change very much. And by then Classic Shell and other start menu software will update their codes to work on the final version of Windows 8. By the time it goes out on sale in the shops.

But the important thing is that,I and other users who want the Windows XP or Windows 7 start menu on Windows 8. Can be assured that yes,we can use Classic Shell and other start menu software on the new Windows 8 RP. We now know that it is working.

As for the removal of the Aero theme.Well I have never used Aero,on Windows Vista or Windows 7. I use Windows Classic theme and then change the grey taskbar and dark blue desktop to a color of my choice. So i won't miss Aero. But I would like to see Windows Classic on Windows 8.But there is no Windows Classic,just Windows 8 Basic.Which is like Windows 7 Basic. That is a shame. Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.


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#27
MagicAndre1981

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The RTM is the version that will go out on sale in the shops,am I right about this?


yes.
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#28
xpclient

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Classic Shell's working fine.

Impossible to run NT6 without third party fixes.


#29
andreaborman

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Attached File  XP start menu Windows 8 CP..JPG   89.1KB   27 downloads

Here is my Windows XP start menu on Windows 8 Consumer Preview,which will also work on Windows 8 RP when I install it. This is the Classic Shell start menu and you can also create your own custom button as I have done. I downloaded some Windows XP start orbs from a site called Devant Art and added them to Classic Shell.

As you can see my desktop looks very much like Windows XP.and all of the Windows XP and Windows Vista software you see in the start menu and desktop works on Windows 8. That's the good thing about Windows 8 you can run all of your Windows XP software,Windows Movie maker 2.1,Windows XP Sound recorder,Windows XP Wordpad and Paint and even WMP11 for Windows 7 and WMP 5.1,Mplay32 on Windows 8. As well as all of the Windows Vista software,Windows Movie Maker 6,Windows Movier Maker 2.6,Vista Sidebar,Windows Mail and Windows Calendar on Windows 8.And all of the Windows XP and Windows 95 games. That's Microsoft Entertainment Pack if you have 32 bit Windows 8 like I have got.

My latest addition is the Windows XP sound scheme and Windows XP song and the Windows XP screen savers from Windows XP on Windows 8.My windows 8 is getting more like Windows XP every day. Andrea Borman.
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#30
submix8c

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#31
Fredledingue

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I don't think Microsoft's programmers are able to safely remove codes for a function as old and as basic as the start menu without risking to disable other functionalities.
The code of Windows is such a mess that maybe nobody knows exactly which code part to remove and which code part not to remove.
It's easy to delete entire functions, but then you may render impossible other tasks. It's much more difficult to delete a few lines and rewrite the function so that everything else works.

It's unlikely that they take this risk.

But at this point, one shouldn't speak about "risk" as MS is concerned but about "deliberate sabotage". ;) LOL.

However MS could add code to prevent classic start menu and other indispensable items to work.

At this point, it's like the national debt: Bloat cannot be reduced it can only be made bigger.

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#32
JorgeA

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I have just come from the Classic Shell forums and they too have confirmed from another poster who has installed Windows 8 RP that Classic Shell is working on Windows 8 RP.Here-My link

So whoever wrote those posts on the web telling us that we won't be able to use third party software in Windows 8 RP to get the start button and Windows XP or Windows 7 start menu back is wrong. And it is simply not true and the information is deliberately misleading.

Trying to get to the bottom of this, I was in contact with Paul Thurrott this afternoon. I asked him point-blank about reports that Classic Shell still works in the RP despite his earlier report. While I do not feel I am entitled to quote directly from a private communication, I can say generally that he reiterated that the process of obliterating all code related to the Start Menu is ongoing. (Moderator: if this is itself a Forum no-no, then by all means please delete this posting.)

I trust Paul Thurrott. He has a lot of contacts within Microsoft, he knows about Windows as much as anyone on the planet, and IMHO if anything he's been a Microsoft supporter over the years, but this spring he made a remarkable turnaround from boosting Windows 8 to becoming quite dubious about what Microsoft is doing -- this speaks volumes for his integrity. Why on Earth would you say that the information is "deliberately" misleading? If anyone did any misleading, I doubt that it was Thurrott.

Explain to me how or why Thurrott would knowingly do that. If anything, as an author of Windows guides his interest would be in building enthusiasm for the new version coming out (= more book sales), not in creating FUD as some of the people in the forum you linked to gratuitously allege. That would have the effect of (further) depressing sales of Windows 8 and, therefore, of his new book.

That said, I hope it's true what ibeltchev says there about Classic Shell not depending (that much) on Windows code in order to work.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 01 June 2012 - 11:41 PM.


#33
ricktendo

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The reason they are forcing you to use metro start is because they don't want it to end up like the Windows Media Center (very few people using it,) their strategy is to force you to use it and therefore you will learn to like it. (If only they did the same with the Windows Media Center more people would see its a great feature to have, I mean how cool is it that my Windows computer is also a friken TiVo?)

Edited by ricktendo64, 02 June 2012 - 12:36 AM.


#34
MagicAndre1981

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I trust Paul Thurrott .... he knows about Windows as much as anyone on the planet


I not. He knows nothing and only speculates. His "knowledge" only comes from Rafael Reviera and from the advantage of getting newer builds from his contacts.

That said, I hope it's true what ibeltchev says there about Classic Shell not depending (that much) on Windows code in order to work.


it depends on finding well defined Windows (everything in Windows Desktop GUI is internally a Window). They can replace the taskbar with undocumented DirectUI code to prevent all tools from running. They did this with Windows Explorer taskbar, that why Classic Shell is already limited in Win8.
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#35
andreaborman

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JorgeA wrote-

I trust Paul Thurrott. He has a lot of contacts within Microsoft, he knows about Windows as much as anyone on the planet, and IMHO if anything he's been a Microsoft supporter over the years, but this spring he made a remarkable turnaround from boosting Windows 8 to becoming quite dubious about what Microsoft is doing -- this speaks volumes for his integrity. Why on Earth would you say that the information is "deliberately" misleading? If anyone did any misleading, I doubt that it was Thurrott.


Whoever wrote those posts on the web,should have installed Windows 8 RP themselves and tested Classic Shell,Vi Start and other start menu software for themselves.Before writing posts that were not correct. Then they would have seen that Classic Shell and the other start menu software IS working on Windows 8 RP. I have not yet installed Windows 8 RP but other people have done.And they have posted that Classic Shell and other start menu software is working on Windows 8 RP.The same as it does on Windows 8 CP.

Magic Andre 1981 wrote-

It depends on finding well defined Windows (everything in Windows Desktop GUI is internally a Window). They can replace the taskbar with undocumented DirectUI code to prevent all tools from running. They did this with Windows Explorer taskbar, that why Classic Shell is already limited in Win8.


Well Classic Explorer which is part of Classic Shell,that gives you classic toolbar buttons and some other features in Windows Explorer also works on Windows 8. The same way it does in Windows Vista and Windows 7. As far as I can see. But one thing you can't do on Windows Vistsa,Windows 7 or Windows 8 is get those big round Windows XP folders in Windows Explorer that are in Windows XP. And I cannot find any software that will bring back Search Companion.You know the animated search with the dog and Merlin and Courtney. And the other animated characters that are on Windows XP search Companion. Which are on Windows XP.

The closest I have come to this is Agent Ransack which works on all versions of Windows including Windows 8. I create a custom toolbar button with Classic Explorer,click on it.And Agent Ransack searches the same way that Windows XP Search Companion does. But there is no animated dog.

So in what way is Classic Shell more limited in Windows 8 than what it is in Windows 7? I have not noticed anything different. Andrea Borman.
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#36
submix8c

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"Search Companion"??? BWAHAHAHAH!

Let's take a poll on that one - "How many people use it"

Right away... GoooByeee!!!!

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#37
andreaborman

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I use Search Companion on Windows XP. First picture is of the animated dog and the second is of Courtney.One of the many animated characters you can choose from. You can also get the search companions to do tricks.Which is really cool.

Why did they ever remove this feature from Windows Vista,windows 7 and future editions of Windows. They have taken the fun out of Windows.

I cannot find any software on the web to bring back the animated features of Search Companion that is on Windows XP.Andrea Borman.

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#38
MagicAndre1981

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Magic Andre 1981 wrote-

It depends on finding well defined Windows (everything in Windows Desktop GUI is internally a Window). They can replace the taskbar with undocumented DirectUI code to prevent all tools from running. They did this with Windows Explorer taskbar, that why Classic Shell is already limited in Win8.


So in what way is Classic Shell more limited in Windows 8 than what it is in Windows 7? I have not noticed anything different. Andrea Borman.


I refer to the statusbar. From what I see it has been replaced so that ClassicShell can't add new information.



I use Search Companion on Windows XP. First picture is of the animated dog and the second is of Courtney.One of the many animated characters you can choose from. You can also get the search companions to do tricks.Which is really cool.

Why did they ever remove this feature from Windows Vista,windows 7 and future editions of Windows. They have taken the fun out of Windows.


here we can see that tastes are different. I always hated this MS Agent animation and removed it to get the Windows 2000 look back. So, adding an option to show or hide is the best to make all users happy.

Edited by MagicAndre1981, 02 June 2012 - 03:22 PM.

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#39
JorgeA

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So whoever wrote those posts on the web telling us that we won't be able to use third party software in Windows 8 RP to get the start button and Windows XP or Windows 7 start menu back is wrong. And it is simply not true and the information is deliberately misleading.

Before we get carried away with accusations of "deliberately misleading" articles, it might help to see what the website actually says:

Related to this second point is information I’ve received that Microsoft has been furiously ripping out legacy code in Windows 8 that would have enabled third parties to bring back the Start button, Start Menu, and other software bits that could have made this new OS look and work like its predecessor.

Paul Thurrott has gotten back to me with some clarification. He explains that what MS is doing is removing code that would allow developers to bring back "actual hidden Windows 7 features" like the Start Button/Menu. But he adds that there is nothing to stop developers from "recreating those old UIs on their own." So this is good news.

For Classic Shell, I suppose that it will hinge on what ultimately becomes of the "undocumented behavior" that ibeltchev (in SourceForge) says Classic Shell depends on. Maybe over the next few weeks, or in the final commercial version, we will find out just what it is that third parties can no longer do with the UI that they could do in the DP and CP.

Meanwhile, I can confirm (to my relief) that Start Menu 7 works in the RP.

Whoever wrote those posts on the web,should have installed Windows 8 RP themselves

Even a brief visit to Thurrott's site will be enough to see that he has in fact installed and explored the RP. Indeed, this past week he's written on virtually nothing BUT the RP.

--JorgeA

#40
andreaborman

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Magic Andre 1981 wrote-

Here we can see that tastes are different. I always hated this MS Agent animation and removed it to get the Windows 2000 look back. So, adding an option to shop or hide is the best to make all users happy.


Well on Windows XP you can search without the animated character, but I don't think you can uninstall the animated characters. I read a post on the web on how to make Windows Explorer in Windows XP look like Windows 2000 Explorer. Without the search companion by doing a registry edit. But that did not work when I tried it.

But I like the animated characters and I wish I knew how to get it back on Windows 7,Windows Vista and Windows 8.

On Windows XP search companion does the same search and searches everything including hidden files,with or without the animated characters. And Agent Ransack will do the same search like search companion if you install it on Windows 7,Windows Vista and Windows 8. The only thing is that, it does not have the animated characters. And I don't know of any software that can give you the animated characters in Windows Explorer like Windows XP's search companion on Windows 7 or any version of Windows. It seems there is not any software that can do this. Andrea Borman.
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#41
Fredledingue

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Paul Thurrott explained:

MS is doing is removing code that would allow developers to bring back "actual hidden Windows 7 features" like the Start Button/Menu. But he adds that there is nothing to stop developers from "recreating those old UIs on their own."

__________________
Yes, As I said above I don't think it's possible to remove all codes which could re-enable one way or another a Start Menu or stuff.

One of the easiest way, if MS realy went extreme about disabling it, is to write a simple program which mimics the start menu and place a shortcut to it in Quicklaunch, preferably the first on the left.
(Ok, Not technicaly a start menu, but the effect will be there.)
Of course I believe coders will be able to create real start menus no matter how hard MS tries to prevent them to do so.

More difficult may be to totaly remove Metro start.

Andrea, you are the first person I know who realy like the animated characters that bad, LOL, and I respect that.
It's true it's fun. And it was silly to remove them.
If I remember corectly it's very easy to disable moving characters, through the search engine settings, no need to edit the registry.

I suggest you to write to the Agent ransack developers and ask for moving characters.
They might be surprised of such request, but you may be even more surprised that they do it. It shouldn't be difficult.

Edited by Fredledingue, 02 June 2012 - 04:26 PM.

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#42
submix8c

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BWAHAHAHAH!!!! A REAL Geek IMMEDIATELY rids themselves of that cute "puppy dog" and IMMEDIATELY institutes "Advanced Search". I control the OS, not the other way around, and a Cute Animation is for Non-techies... That "Techie" comment is what most of the complaints are about - MS has gone out of their way (apparently) to cater to the "Wow! That looks pretty!" crowd.

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#43
Fredledingue

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submix8c don't laugh about poeple who like puppies and other animated paper clips. If they like it... it should be there and be in the options.

Poeple like fun sometimes.

You can also argue that REAL gEEks leave their PC case open permanently for all to see the new cool gears inside, like they are experimenting new stuffs every day LOL. (in fact it's just neglect)

FAKE gEEks however are those who simply put a nice wallpaper and a color theme nobody is used to see. That's just shallow.

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#44
submix8c

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You can also argue that REAL gEEks leave their PC case open permanently for all to see the new cool gears inside, like they are experimenting new stuffs every day LOL. (in fact it's just neglect)

BWAHAHAHAH! "Neglect" and to help cool it with a great big fan!!!!

Sorry if I offended anyone... :D

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#45
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The above picture is of Windows Classic theme on my Windows 7. On Windows 7 and Windows Vista I never use the Aero the or Windows 7 or Vista Basic. Instead I use Windows Classic and change the grey taskbar and dark blue desktop to a color of my choice. So I won't miss Aero if they remove it from Windows 8 like they may do.

But on Windows 8 there is no Windows Classic.So I have to use Windows 8 Basic. There is high contrast theme on Windows 8, but it is not the same. I don't understand why they have kept high contrast theme,which not many people use, but have dropped Windows Classic.

If they are going to get rid of Aero why not just bring back Windows Classic. It is strange how Microsoft have kept high contrast themes, but have dropped Windows Classic.They should have dropped the high contrast and kept Windows Classic instead. I miss Windows Classic very much on Windows 8. Windows Classic completely disables Aero which is better for netbooks.Which is what I have got. Andrea Borman.
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#46
JorgeA

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If they are going to get rid of Aero why not just bring back Windows Classic. It is strange how Microsoft have kept high contrast themes, but have dropped Windows Classic.They should have dropped the high contrast and kept Windows Classic instead. I miss Windows Classic very much on Windows 8. Windows Classic completely disables Aero which is better for netbooks.Which is what I have got.

I remember reading somewhere, sometime, that the High Contrast color schemes are intended for people with impaired eyesight. Here's what I found tonight.

It really is too bad, though, that they dropped the Windows Classic theme. Tally another point against Windows 8. Three years ago when I got my Vista machine (to replace a sick Windows 98 system), my first impulse was to change it over to Classic, but then I thought I'd leave each machine with its own "personality." Still, it's comforting to know that I can switch over to Classic anytime I want.

--JorgeA

#47
tomasz86

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There's a Classic AE theme for Windows 7 so maybe someone will make a similar one for Windows 8 too.
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#48
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JorgeA wrote-

I remember reading somewhere, sometime, that the High Contrast color schemes are intended for people with impaired eyesight. Here's what I found tonight.


I did not know that. I tried High Contrast White on Windows 8.And then I changed the desktop and taskbar from white to another color.But it would not display the websites correctly,they were displayed in all white with black text. So I changed the theme back to Windows 8 Basic. Andrea Borman.

Edited by andreaborman, 03 June 2012 - 02:28 AM.

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#49
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I have just tested classic shell wit Windows 8 release preview x64. And not only it is working, but it is working even better than with the customer preview of Windows 8 :yes: . I assume start 8 will work just fine too. :sneaky:

Edited by tsampikos, 04 June 2012 - 05:55 AM.


#50
andreaborman

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I have just tested classic shell wit Windows 8 release preview x64. And not only it is working, but it is working even better than with the customer preview of Windows 8 :yes: . I assume start 8 will work just fine too. :sneaky:


Start 8?That does give you a start button but it only brings up the Metro start menu which we have got anyway. We can access the Metro start menu by clicking on the Charms bar and going to search.Or by exiting Classic Shell and then your Windows key takes you back to the start screen where you can find the full Metro start menu in All Apps under search. So I don't see the point in installing Start 8. As it has settings that are already there. And is more for people who want to use the Metro start menu. Andrea Borman.
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