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Now they're chopping up the Start Button's bones


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#51
tsampikos

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Well Start8 sort of makes the Metro Menu look like start menu, but in metro style. It's not bad actualy, but still Classic shell is my favourite too.It is more reach in settings and totally "traditional". It's not bad to have a couple of alternatives around though.... ;)


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#52
JorgeA

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Well Start8 sort of makes the Metro Menu look like start menu, but in metro style. It's not bad actualy, but still Classic shell is my favourite too.It is more reach in settings and totally "traditional". It's not bad to have a couple of alternatives around though.... ;)

If I had to, I would choose Start8 over the Metro Start Screen. Start8 still has the Metro look (and that's a minus in my book), but at least it doesn't take over the whole screen, so you can still keep an eye on your open windows while selecting the next thing to open. This is especially handy for when you're following instructions -- say, on a webpage ("open this and then click on that").

Agreed on the desirability of having alternatives!

--JorgeA

#53
tsampikos

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The only pssitive point in this whole "negativeness" of Windows 8 is that not only we can add a start button, but we can customise it like plasticine. :) Let's hope that this will remain unchanged in the final Version of WIndows 8 and I am 90% sure that it will be. If that's not the case thank God there are other OSes lying around,

#54
andreaborman

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In Windows 8 Developers Preview,we could disable the Metro theme with a simpler registry edit. This brought back the Windows 7 desktop and start menu. Now in Windows 8 Consumer Preview and in Windows 8 Release Preview,this is no longer possible. However you can add both the start button and Windows 7 start menu to the desktop by installing Classic Shell or Start Menu 7 or other third party software.

This means that you only see the Metro start screen at start up and no other time. Unless you want to go back to the Metro start menu. So the start button and Windows XP or Windows 7 start menu is on the desktop,and the Metro start menu runs in the background.

So for users who want the Windows 7 start menu,if they install third party software. They only see the Metro start screen at start up,but the rest of the time they deal with the Windows 7 or Windows XP start menu. This I find most reasonable for people like me who are used to the traditional Windows start menu.

And when Windows 8 does go on sale to the public,makers like HP and Dell should consider putting a start menu software like Classic Shell on their laptops. As most people who are ordinary computer users,won't know that they can download a start menu software to get the Windows start menu. But I and other people who are learning do know that. But many other people don't know.

So it would be better if Microsoft added an option to have the Windows 7 start menu in their theme settings.This would mean disabling Metro like in Windows 8 DP. Andrea Borman.
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#55
JorgeA

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So it would be better if Microsoft added an option to have the Windows 7 start menu in their theme settings.This would mean disabling Metro like in Windows 8 DP.

Right on -- that would take care of most of the problems that we (I) have with Windows 8!

Given the way they've been acting and talking, though, my guess is that MS is going to plow on with Metro, and then bring back the choice to disable/bypass it only after a massive customer backlash.

--JorgeA

#56
JorgeA

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The only pssitive point in this whole "negativeness" of Windows 8 is that not only we can add a start button, but we can customise it like plasticine. :) Let's hope that this will remain unchanged in the final Version of WIndows 8 and I am 90% sure that it will be. If that's not the case thank God there are other OSes lying around,

+1 on everything you said!

--JorgeA

#57
andreaborman

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Yes we can add what ever kind of start button we like to Windows 8.Unlike on Windows XP and Windows 7,where changing the start button involves a major file hack.Which is very risky and can break Windows.

But as there is no start button on Windows 8,you are not hacking any files by adding your own custom button. Classic Shell makes it easy for us to do this. we can add any bitmap image as our own custom start button.Like I have my Windows XP start button on Windows 8.

But the problem is that most people who will be using Windows 8 for the first time,won't know that they can install Classic Shell. And the first thing they will see is the Metro theme,that they won't be familiar with. Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.

#58
submix8c

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Not to throw a wrench into the works...
BUT....

Those transitioning from ANY pre-Windows8 will have one GIANT Learning Curve, even if NOT a "geek"!!!

It appears to be an even WORSE leap than from XP to Vista/Seven!!! ("Now where did they move THAT to???") At least from 9x/2K to XP then to Vista/Seven was not a monster!

Only if you've NEVER had a PC and ONLY an (e.g.) iPad will you be "happy" (dumbed-down).

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

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#59
Tripredacus

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Server 2012 RC, while it does have Metro, it seems a lot easier to use than any of the Win8 versions I've used. It might be because by default the Server Manager opens instead of Metro. And if you close Server Manager, you see the Desktop. You can still get to Metro via the same methods, if you move into the lower left hand corner you can click it there.
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#60
andreaborman

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Server 2012 RC, while it does have Metro, it seems a lot easier to use than any of the Win8 versions I've used. It might be because by default the Server Manager opens instead of Metro. And if you close Server Manager, you see the Desktop. You can still get to Metro via the same methods, if you move into the lower left hand corner you can click it there.


Yes I have heard of Windows Server 2008 and Windows Server 2012. But it's not an operating system like Windows Vista ,Windows 7 or Windows 8 is.Or is it? So what do people use Windows Server for? Can you browse the web in Firefox and play videos in WMP and use Windows Server like you use Windows XP,Windows 7 or Windows 8 for example or not?What do they use Windows Server for? Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.

#61
submix8c

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Server 2000 = Super 2000 Pro
Server 2003 = Super XP Pro
Server 2008 = Super Vista/Windows7 Ultimate
So... one might "assume" -
Server 2012 = Super Windows8

Server OS's have MANY additional features not found on "Consumer"/"Business" versions. Like... being a Server (Domain Controller, DHCP Server, full-blown Web/FTP Server, Media Content Server, etc). Servers can do EVERYTHING the others can do AND THEN SOME! Some folks actually Disable many Services just to make it more non-Server-like unless/until they want/need a given Service. Even how to add "unsupported" Components to it that aren't included from the next-lower (if you have that OS as well).

Server2k3->Workstation
http://www.msfn.org/win2k3/index.htm
Server2k8->Workstation
http://www.msfn.org/...to-workstation/
Server->Workstation - Why?
http://www.msfn.org/...orkstation-why/

See? You're a User! (mild snark... please don't be offended).
edit - LOL :lol:

Edited by submix8c, 05 June 2012 - 04:16 PM.

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#62
Tripredacus

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Yes I have heard of Windows Server 2008 and Windows Server 2012. But it's not an operating system like Windows Vista ,Windows 7 or Windows 8 is.Or is it? So what do people use Windows Server for? Can you browse the web in Firefox and play videos in WMP and use Windows Server like you use Windows XP,Windows 7 or Windows 8 for example or not?What do they use Windows Server for? Andrea Borman.


Sure you could do all of those things in a Server OS, but I certainly wouldn't! :angel
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#63
tomasz86

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Server 2000 = Super 2000 Pro

It's 2000 Server ;)

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#64
submix8c

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Server 2000 = Super 2000 Pro

It's 2000 Server ;)

I was trying to be "consistent". ;)

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#65
andreaborman

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Server 2000 = Super 2000 Pro
Server 2003 = Super XP Pro
Server 2008 = Super Vista/Windows7 Ultimate
So... one might "assume" -
Server 2012 = Super Windows8

Server OS's have MANY additional features not found on "Consumer"/"Business" versions. Like... being a Server (Domain Controller, DHCP Server, full-blown Web/FTP Server, Media Content Server, etc). Servers can do EVERYTHING the others can do AND THEN SOME! Some folks actually Disable many Services just to make it more non-Server-like unless/until they want/need a given Service. Even how to add "unsupported" Components to it that aren't included from the next-lower (if you have that OS as well).

Server2k3->Workstation
http://www.msfn.org/win2k3/index.htm
Server2k8->Workstation
http://www.msfn.org/...to-workstation/
Server->Workstation - Why?
http://www.msfn.org/...orkstation-why/

See? You're a User! (mild snark... please don't be offended).
edit - LOL :lol:


Well I still don't know what Windows server is. The question I was trying to ask was-Is it an operating system like Windows Vista and Windows 7? And can you use it in the same way as you can Windows XP and Windows 7? Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.

#66
Tripredacus

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You can, but why would you? You use server to "serve" out services. For example:

- Active Directory
- Exchange
- DHCP
- DNS
- Web Server (IIS)
etc
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#67
JorgeA

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You can, but why would you? You use server to "serve" out services. For example:

- Active Directory
- Exchange
- DHCP
- DNS
- Web Server (IIS)
etc

That's right.

Some people also use Windows Home Server flavors of Windows to run a (Windows) Media Center system, with a central network hard drive(s) sending recorded programs out to several TVs and/or Media Center extenders. Over time, it beats paying the cable company for "whole-house DVR" subscriptions, if you can handle the technical aspects.

--JorgeA

#68
Fredledingue

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Bear in mind that Windows Server is 5 to 10 times as expensive as "normal" Windows.
And its features are useless if you are not a high tech person. Or if you don't need to connect more than two computers and/or network devices.

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#69
jaclaz

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Just wanted to share this nice thingy, I am not alone in thinking that the paradigm shift is towards more "passive" use of the technoology, Scott Adams (Author of the Dilbert strips) has put it down way more nicely than I did (obviously):
http://www.dilbert.c...ess_of_instant/

Another interesting phenomenon of the iPhone and iPad era is that we are being transformed from producers of content into consumers. With my BlackBerry, I probably created as much data as I consumed. It was easy to thumb-type long explanations, directions, and even jokes and observations. With my iPhone, I try to avoid creating any message that are over one sentence long. But I use the iPhone browser to consume information a hundred times more than I did with the BlackBerry. I wonder if this will change people over time, in some subtle way that isn't predictable. What happens when people become trained to think of information and entertainment as something they receive and not something they create? I think this could be a fork in the road for human evolution. Perhaps in a million years, humans will feel no conversational obligation to entertain or provide useful information. That will be the function of the Internet. Someday a scientist will identify the introduction of the iPhone as the point where evolution began to remove conversation from the list of human capabilities. And when the scientist forms this realization, he won't tell his spouse because conversation won't exist. He'll put it on the Internet.


jaclaz

#70
ColdFlo

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Windows 8 is the future it is superior, faster, and with fast fade slide metro there is no longer an argument for pulling the mouse all the way to the left side of the screen to click in tiny menus. Its faster and more hot key integrated which should have happened a long time ago. Adapt or perish; the time it takes you to learn a new interface is nothing compared with the reduced stress from using it. Sure it will have to be hammered out, but business never upgrades to the newest os anyway. All your points are moot. You will change nothing. Being blunt is not trolling..................... it's helping you let go of your clinging delusion.

#71
andreaborman

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Windows 8 is the future it is superior, faster, and with fast fade slide metro there is no longer an argument for pulling the mouse all the way to the left side of the screen to click in tiny menus. Its faster and more hot key integrated which should have happened a long time ago. Adapt or perish; the time it takes you to learn a new interface is nothing compared with the reduced stress from using it. Sure it will have to be hammered out, but business never upgrades to the newest os anyway. All your points are moot. You will change nothing. Being blunt is not trolling..................... it's helping you let go of your clinging delusion.


But you can install start menu software like Classic Shell and other to get the Windows 7 start menu back. This helps a lot of Windows user,including me who are not used to the Metro theme. Andrea Borman.
Andrea Borman.

#72
jaclaz

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All your points are moot.

Well, at least we have a few of them :whistle: , unlike you:
Spoiler


Noone said that Windows 8 is not:
  • the future
  • faster
  • *whatever* better than current OS
everyone is saying that it's interface sucks big.

jaclaz

#73
Tripredacus

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But you can install start menu software like Classic Shell and other to get the Windows 7 start menu back. This helps a lot of Windows user,including me who are not used to the Metro theme. Andrea Borman.


Unfortunately, the percentage of users who are even aware of such things is extremely small compared to the amount of people who would end up using Windows 8.
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#74
JorgeA

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Windows 8 is the future it is superior, faster, and with fast fade slide metro there is no longer an argument for pulling the mouse all the way to the left side of the screen to click in tiny menus. Its faster and more hot key integrated which should have happened a long time ago. Adapt or perish; the time it takes you to learn a new interface is nothing compared with the reduced stress from using it. Sure it will have to be hammered out, but business never upgrades to the newest os anyway. All your points are moot. You will change nothing. Being blunt is not trolling..................... it's helping you let go of your clinging delusion.

Mentioning only in passing the patronizing, gratuitous insult about a "clinging delusion," unlike you I will keep to the substance of the issue.

"Adapt or perish." Microsoft already tried to get its customers to "adapt" to Windows Me and Vista -- how did that work out for the company? Businesses such as Microsoft are the ones that must adapt to their customers' preferences, not the other way around -- or else run the risk of perishing.

Now go back to the First Impressions and Deeper Impressions threads and consider the actual usability problems that we have been reporting (or linked to) with this abomination called Windows 8.

You can say all you want for Metro but if speed is your thing, then when it comes to opening the Start Menu nothing beats simply pressing the Windows key. Oh, and the cursor will already be sitting in the search window so that -- as with the Metro screen -- you can start typing the name of the program you want... if you can remember it. The Metro start screen offers no functional improvement there, but (because it takes over the whole monitor screen) calling it up does get in the way of anything else you might be doing.

--JorgeA

#75
belgianguy

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But you can install start menu software like Classic Shell and other to get the Windows 7 start menu back. This helps a lot of Windows user,including me who are not used to the Metro theme. Andrea Borman.


Unfortunately, the percentage of users who are even aware of such things is extremely small compared to the amount of people who would end up using Windows 8.


Not only that, but by being third party it will also mean that it will not be an option in most (if any) installers that a person uses in Windows 8. Up until now the features to add items to the Start Menu came with an installer as the Start Menu was certain to be there as an official part of the OS. In Windows 8, that is no longer the case. And with the vehemence with which Microsoft seems to be willing to push their long-time supporters off a cliff, I wouldn't put it next to them to try and block any other experience than the Metro experience. As they seem to have the deluded belief that an unnatural, cramped and ugly way of interacting with my previous powerful and flexible desktop will make me consider buying another one of their products.

It's blatantly obvious at this point that Windows 8 is Microsofts' desperate answer to the iPad (and to a lesser extent, Android tablets), after Ballmer flat out s*** himself when he saw the market getting sedated by yet another product he didn't foresee becoming succesful. The desktop, for better or for worse is an afterthought for Microsoft here, they really couldn't care less if you want to use Windows 8 on the Desktop. If you do, they'll be laughing all way to the bank and at the poor fools who fell for their marketing ploy. They only want one thing from Windows 8: to fish in the pond Apple's been fishing in and they're betting their farm on it that most people will cling to Windows 7 for the desktop until the next 'desktop friendly' Windows comes around.

Sadly, where Ballmer and Sinofsky think they can use the Windows mothership to break into the tablet market, I think their Metro delusion will backfire and the bad press of Windows 8 will blemish their core Windows product just like Vista did (where Vista was a fine product running on less than capable hardware, not so with Metro, where the hardware is fine but the software is crippled). They can make amends, but even when the major backlash would occur and they would offer their users a *gasp* choice, they wouldn't even be able to afford to drop Metro completely, as they'd make themselves look bad worse. So even in the best case Metro will hang around like the red-headed stepchild it already is.

Edited by belgianguy, 11 June 2012 - 10:13 AM.





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