[Dogway]

jaclaz, on 24 August 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

But you should have some sound data in order to state it.... that's a nuance in language communication.

Anything I say is a statement, at most a statement alike opinion. Statements are illusions of individuals who think to own a truth, but that's only my opinion, it's how languages work. Anyways, isn't google proof enough (without declare it a statement)?

BTW language is not something you can explain or demonstrate like in science, it's hard to explain why blue is a relaxing color, while red is a hot, passionate color, but everyone agrees to that for reasons human beings can't yet explain. I'm not going to write a thesis on how everything I say has an evidential proof when it is assumed that human beings have a sense we usually call common sense and refer to the above things, it's like trying to demonstrate the obvious, or let's call it plausible.

I'm not saying that what you said was wrong, it's just that don't expect everyone to think things you already know. That's why despite how much knowledge an individual could own about something, being a teacher is another different matter, you need an empathic sense of what the pupil might or not think, reverse thinking, that is.

and at last:

Quote

...more facts, things, or people like the one or ones mentioned...

what do you understand by "like" here?
whatever? or something alike?

English isn't either my mother tongue, actually I barely talk it nice, but languages are more similar than one might expect (I talk a 3rd language too).

[jaclaz]

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

Anyways, isn't google proof enough (without declare it a statement)?

How exactly google is a proof of popularity of Winrar (or of any other program)?
I mean how exactly did you probed Winrar popularity through google? (with which search terms, with which options, etc.)

Be aware that count results might represent a meaningless metric:
http://web.archive.o...ess-metric.html


jaclaz

[Dogway]

"WinRar"
77,400,000 results
"7-Zip"
15,800,000 results

I don't think your linked page has nothing to do with this. Anything in this life is absolute, it's just an indication. But if you still want to think that blue is a hot, passionate color, that's fine with me.

[jaclaz]

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

"WinRar"
77,400,000 results
"7-Zip"
15,800,000 results

"gzip"
About 154,000,000 results

BUt what do you expect from pigeons?
http://www.google.co...pigeonrank.html

Some more meaningless metrics:
www.winrar.com
http://www.alexa.com...reener&p=bigtop
Alexa Traffic Rank: 237,224 Traffic Rank in US: 182,306 Sites Linking In: 428

www.winzip.com
http://www.alexa.com...reener&p=bigtop
Alexa Traffic Rank: 4,317 Traffic Rank in US: 2,481 Sites Linking In: 22,726

www.7-zip.org
http://www.alexa.com...reener&p=bigtop
Alexa Traffic Rank: 12,040 Traffic Rank in US: 10,078 Sites Linking In: 21,138

www.gzip.org
http://www.alexa.com...reener&p=bigtop
Alexa Traffic Rank: 109,516 Traffic Rank in US: 90,913 Sites Linking In: 2,033

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

I don't think your linked page has nothing to do with this. Anything in this life is absolute, it's just an indication.

I am not sure to get the double negation

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

But if you still want to think that blue is a hot, passionate color, that's fine with me.

Opinions are free .
Statements should be IMHO however backed up by some substantial data.

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 25 August 2012 - 02:52 AM

[Dogway]

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

"gzip"
About 154,000,000 results

gzip is too short and unpeculiar to be fooled. If you still wonder, go to bing, or yahoo.
I wouldn't call the official webpage traffic as an accurate evidence of popularity compared to search engines. By no means actually, it's like determining Call of Duty popularity by it's webpage traffic.

jaclaz, on 25 August 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

I don't think your linked page has nothing to do with this. Anything in this life is absolute, it's just an indication.

I am not sure to get the double negation

I already told you, first English is not my mother tongue, second, by only being a native English speaker doesn't mean you can understand me any better if you lack the "reading" component of communication. By your words you also seem to lack that component since for the given context it clearly reads; Nothing is absolute. After having you read this little explanation let me tell you that you are not cooler by playing dumb, I can "read" you being cynical.

jaclaz, on 25 August 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

But if you still want to think that blue is a hot, passionate color, that's fine with me.

Opinions are free .
Statements should be IMHO however backed up by some substantial data.

Again I already told you, no such things as statements do exist, not even this line, maybe is a bit hard for you to understand if you don't open more your mind.

[jaclaz]

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

I wouldn't call the official webpage traffic as an accurate evidence of popularity compared to search engines. By no means actually, it's like determining Call of Duty popularity by it's webpage traffic.

That's good, again we basically agree.

Cnet downloads:
http://download.cnet...le-compression/
Winzip seems like being more popular than Winrar, what gives?

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

I already told you, first English is not my mother tongue, second, by only being a native English speaker doesn't mean you can understand me any better if you lack the "reading" component of communication. By your words you also seem to lack that component since for the given context it clearly reads; Nothing is absolute. After having you read this little explanation let me tell you that you are not cooler by playing dumb, I can "read" you being cynical.

Look, I could not understand the sense of your sentences, which I now understand were meant as simple negation:

Quote

I don't think your linked page has nothing to do with this. NoAnything in this life is absolute, it's just an indication.

You see, I wasn't sure about something, I asked about it and you clarified the meaning.
We won't become friends through this process, let alone change our respective opinions, but at least we are communicating .

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Again I already told you, no such things as statements do exist, not even this line, maybe is a bit hard for you to understand if you don't open more your mind.

Hmmm.
If that line doesn't exist, how can I open my mind by reading it and understanding how statements don't exist?
It looks like a nice Catch 22.

I would have liked to make a few more statements, like:

Quote

and

Quote

besides:

Quote

but now it seems pointless...

jaclaz

[Dogway]

Quote

"The only thing certain in life is death"

I just want to say that there is nothing such as black or white, it's just shades of grey.
And sometimes your eyes can't even see if one grey tone is lighter than another. There are methods to try to play it safer and test (with also shades of greys accuracy) that one color is lighter than another. At the end you have a likely, a founded opinion, but never a statement.
With this being said, if you are going to turn down everything because lack of evidence or proof, then things are gonna be really tough for you, because living is an act of faith. When I visit wikipedia, rest assured I don't check every one of the references to know whether it's correct, I assume it's very likely to be correct and get going.

Finally I don't think you are being true to yourself, you are just trying to justify a forced position in an awkward way in order to don't agree with me.

Quote

If that line doesn't exist, how can I open my mind by reading it and understanding how statements don't exist?

Because everything said by everybody can't be certain, thus statements hardly exists. As I do with wikipedia, assume its implicit subjectivity and get going. It seems to work.

[jaclaz]

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Quote

"The only thing certain in life is death"

I just want to say that there is nothing such as black or white, it's just shades of grey.
And sometimes your eyes can't even see if one grey tone is lighter than another. There are methods to try to play it safer and test (with also shades of greys accuracy) that one color is lighter than another. At the end you have a likely, a founded opinion, but never a statement.

You see, again we basically agree:
http://reboot.pro/15878/

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

With this being said, if you are going to turn down everything because lack of evidence or proof, then things are gonna be really tough for you, because living is an act of faith. When I visit wikipedia, rest assured I don't check every one of the references to know whether it's correct, I assume it's very likely to be correct and get going.

Naaah, I have a lot of faith, but I tend to keep it separate from statemnts (and also from facts).

On some unrelated news, apparently the good guys at Corel are not telling the truth (or maybe they have a lot of faith):
http://www.winzip.co...n/en/empopp.htm

Quote

We are located in Mansfield, CT, and offer WinZip, the world's most popular Zip utility for Windows used by thousands of organizations, government agencies and Fortune 500 companies, as well as millions of home users.

or possibly Winrar is not a ZIp utility
Surely, the expected target in mid-september of 1 billion (as in 1,000,000,000) downloads:
http://www.marketwir...ads-1693830.htm
http://www.winzip.co...way-landing.htm
is impressive, though since probably even downloads don't exist, I doubt they can reach anyway the popularity of Winrar, as certified by google hits.
Wait does google (and it's results) exist?

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Finally I don't think you are being true to yourself, you are just trying to justify a forced position in an awkward way in order to don't agree with me.

Actually I have no particular position, and rest assured that when I talk or write ) to myself I tend to undestand myself.

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Quote

If that line doesn't exist, how can I open my mind by reading it and understanding how statements don't exist?

Because everything said by everybody can't be certain, thus statements hardly exists. As I do with wikipedia, assume its implicit subjectivity and get going. It seems to work.

Interesting.
Though I still fail how can WIkipedia actually exist (since it is made mainly of statements).
Maybe there are existing statements (the ones in Wikipedia) and non-existing ones (all the rest).
I'll have to think a bit about the implications of this approach.

And I cannot even put my new footwear on :

Spoiler

jaclaz

[Dogway]

hahahaa, are you joking? faith is in the opposite position of what you relate on the winzip line.
They are a company and just conveniently lying to you to sell a product, it's you who must or not have faith towards them. I naturally don't.

Wikipedia is not made of statements, is made of (statements alike) opinions, made out of (statements alike) opinions, made out of (statements alike) opinions... Or do you really think maths ever existed? It's fantasy man. You can't tell something is true if somebody made it, because you (as a human too) can unmake it if you want, or reinterpret it. Nothing is steady, everything is subjective, but still you need to ground on something, so believe, but be aware nothing is 100% sure, even that thing you try to look for and don't find. Just believe according to the hints and trusting guides ridden by your common sense, because there's nothing else.

[jaclaz]

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

hahahaa, are you joking? faith is in the opposite position of what you relate on the winzip line.
They are a company and just conveniently lying to you to sell a product, it's you who must or not have faith towards them. I naturally don't.

So you have less faith in them than I have?
I don't really understand the concept, since they already sold a huge numebr of licenses, someone should buy more from them?
It would be illogical, exactly because they already sold a big number of licenses, I would rather personally give my money to some new, smaller company that actually needs it, as long as the product is (IMHO) worth the money.
I mean I do understand popularity as a consequence of merit, but I fail to see how popularity would constitute merit....
BTW, I told you how I cheap I am, but these guys to celebrate 1 billion download (if I recall correctly the Winzip division makes around 20 Million US$/year) put as prize for the draw:
http://www.winzip.co...edraw-rules.htm
(besides a number of useless licenses for a previous version of an useless app) a single large screen TV?

Quote

"Grand Prize" - one (1) Samsung® 60" 1080p 120Hz LED HDTV (approximate retail value of two thousand dollars ($2,000CAD)). If Sponsor determines that it cannot fulfill the stated Grand Prize to the potential winner, for whatever reason, Sponsor reserves the right (in its sole discretion) to substitute the stated Grand Prize for another prize of its choosing of equal or greater value.

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Wikipedia is not made of statements, is made of (statements alike) opinions, made out of (statements alike) opinions, made out of (statements alike) opinions... Or do you really think maths ever existed? It's fantasy man. You can't tell something is true if somebody made it, because you (as a human too) can unmake it if you want, or reinterpret it. Nothing is steady, everything is subjective, but still you need to ground on something, so believe, but be aware nothing is 100% sure, even that thing you try to look for and don't find. Just believe according to the hints and trusting guides ridden by your common sense, because there's nothing else.

I know that.

Unfortunately it seems like .....

Spoiler

Quote

http://i293.photobuc...CommonSense.jpg

jaclaz

[submix8c]

Dogway, you really ARE a glutton aren't you? Playing the "semantics" game doesn't erase the fact that the initial SPECIFIC suggestion was correct and you took it upon yourself to make a, well, FALSE assumption.

Seriously, jaclaz is not one I relish debating with and (trust me), I'm well educated. Besides the fact that (and you must have missed this) English is NOT the "first" language of either of you (but IS mine).

Play it smart... stop while your (almost) "even". Second place is a lot better than "L"...

Seriously, you WOULD like later assistance, wouldn't you?

[Dogway]

submix8c, I don't debate to win or lose, that's very primitive thinking. I do for being understood, (not the same as agreed).

"...SPECIFIC suggestion was correct..."

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

I'm not saying that what you said was wrong, it's just that don't expect everyone to think things you already know. ... reverse thinking, that is.

"Playing the "semantics" game"
No, "among others" is not an expression tied exclusively to English. It does exists in the 3 languages I talk, so rather than semantics is about logical thinking, common sense superpower, we all have, we all use, just that for some is not the most common of the senses, that's all. And now that you submix8c are in and twisted memmes start to substitute conversation I'm out. This starts to smell like a bullying fest.

[jaclaz]

Dogway, on 25 August 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

No, "among others" is not an expression tied exclusively to English. It does exists in the 3 languages I talk, so rather than semantics is about logical thinking, common sense superpower, we all have, we all use, just that for some is not the most common of the senses, that's all.

I guess that the origin, as often is, is Latin:
Inter Alia:
http://dictionary.re...owse/inter+alia
http://en.wikipedia....tin_phrases_(I)
so it is very likely that the concept exists at least in all western languages.

While I am at it, another Wikipedia (statement alike) opinion

jaclaz

[Dogway]

jaclaz, on 25 August 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I guess that the origin, as often is, is Latin:
Inter Alia:
http://dictionary.re...owse/inter+alia
http://en.wikipedia....tin_phrases_(I)
so it is very likely that the concept exists at least in all western languages.

are you suggesting that I don't speak any non-western language? otherwise your sentence is totally out of context.
FYI It does exist in Japanese.

BTW you can throw all the absurd links you want, without coherent reasoning they're just cheap excuses, cheap demagogy (as called in Spanish)

[bphlpt]

@Dogway, do you still have a technical issue remotely connected with your original post that you would still like assistance with? O would you, jaclaz, and/or submix8c just like to continue your discussion about words and phrases and their origin, meaning, or interpretation in whichever language any of you care to use? If the latter, would you please move that part of the discussion to a more appropriate place in the forum? If you choose to do that, I'm sure an admin or moderator would be glad to strip out the relevant posts into the new thread. That part might be interesting for those fascinated by the nuances of language. That would leave the useful technical bits here for others to read if they have a similar problem and they then wouldn't have to wade through the distracting parts to get to the useful info. Thanks in advance.

Cheers and Regards