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USB Keyboards and Mice

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49 replies to this topic

#1
rloew

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OMG ! Welcome to the forum, I hope. My 1st post/comments.
I hope I don't fuel the (usb) fire any more, but here goes.
Has anyone else had an install problem with 98 SE SP 3.x, when your system has both a USB keyboard & mouse ?
Mine is: Viewsonic KBM-KU-306 & MS Comfort Optical Mouse 3000
MB=Asus A7N8X - nVidia nForce2 controllers - AMD Anthalon 1300 CPU - 512 Mb Ram
Did a fresh clean install Win 98 SE. Installed all necessary drivers to eliminate any unknown devices in the System /Device Manager section,
including (nVidia ?) usb20_98me.exe Ver 2.0.8 (that removed a PCI Universal Serial Bus-unknown ? device)
Installed IE 5.5 & Dirextx 9.0c. Did a MS Backup of my C: drive All worked fine to this point
Now I installed SP 3.6 main updates only. When install was finished, I shut down.
Then I would reboot to Safe Mode, to remove any and all USB stuff in the device manager. (As to your usb 2.0 notice/instructions)
KB & Mouse had to remain attached or PC won't boot up.
Hope that was correct procedure to follow. Upon S/D & Reboot: detection of Standard Open HCI Usb Host Controller started.
Was seeking files usb.inf & then Sp3.cab. When finished installing software your hardware requires dialog message popped up, both
the mouse & keyboard locked up/no response. SD & reboot again to add new H.W. wizard window looking to install Standard Open HCI Usb Host Controller
again, and again no response from mouse or KB. This continues to reoccur on every reboot, No KB or mouse. Tried at least 6 times with no success.
Booted to safe mode to restore my previously backed up system (replace all files & restore Registry & H.W. settings)
Interesting note after System restore is all my Usb storage devices were recognized and usable. About 6 different ones. Could do fast removal also.

@ReK67:

There is a problem when Installing USB Keyboards and Mice. Initially the BIOS uses SMI to emulate a PS/2 Keyboard and Mouse, allowing the USB Keyboard and Mouse to be used in DOS and during Boot. When the USB Controller Drivers are started, they take over, telling the SMI to stop Emulating. The Compatability Drivers for the Keyboard and Mouse only recognize PS/2 Devices.

This disables the Keyboard and Mouse until the Windows Keyboard and Mouse Drivers are loaded. Unfortunately, as you have discovered, you are unable to Install the Drivers without access to the Keyboard and Mouse causing a Catch 22. You were able to Install them initially because the Windows Installer suppressed the Dialogs that you are getting hung up on.

There are a number of options. A partial list follows:

1. Attach a PS/2 Keyboard and/or Mouse, in addition to the USB Keyboard and Mouse, either is enough. Use the PS/2 Device to reply to the Dialogs.

2. Manually Disable, not remove, all of the USB Controllers in Safe Mode. Make sure your USB Keyboard and Mouse are not connected to the same Controller. Reboot, you should have access again. Enable one Controller and reboot. Repeat until you get an Installation Dialog. Either the Keyboard or the Mouse should still be working. If not you have to move one and start over. If one is working you can use it to install the Driver for the other. You should then be able to reenable all of the Controllers, reboot, and install the remaining Driver with the other Device.

Although I can't say for sure, I don't think it is the SP that caused the problem. More likely it was the Driver refresh. The Instructions don't take into account USB Keyboards and Mice.

I would have Posted this as a reply but the original Thread is locked.

Edited by rloew, 07 September 2012 - 02:07 PM.

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#2
PROBLEMCHYLD

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I was just about to ask you to shed some light on this specific issue. Thanks
I will list your instructions in version 3.7.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 07 September 2012 - 02:13 PM.

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#3
rloew

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I was just about to ask you to shed some light on this specific issue. Thanks
I will list your instructions in version 3.7.

I'm not sure the instructions I listed are suitable for the SP. They were intended to help recover after the damage was done.
It may be OK not to remove the USB Keyboard and Mouse Drivers themselves, just the Controllers. This needs to be tested. It would be a much better solution than the ones I posted.
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#4
PROBLEMCHYLD

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I have some good news :thumbup Thanks ReK67, rloew and jaclaz.

I have found you doNOT need safe mode to delete the USB drivers only if you have done the following below.
The first 3 registry applies to all Win98 systems.
The last 4 are specifically for my system hardware. If you guys find all the necessary keys after the first 3 that are listed, we might have something. I created a REG file from all of my USB devices plugged in, that will delete the drivers. After the installation of Main Updates, I did NOT reboot but imported the registry file to delete the drivers. I did NOT remove any USB devices. I rebooted and every single device that was left plugged in were re-detected. If everyone does this for their systems it would be a lot easier. Novices will have to follow the original instructions if they are not up to this. You'll have to find your own keys because every system is different. I'm working on your problem ReK67. The procedure would only need to be done once unless new USB drivers has been added.

1. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\HID]
2. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\USB]
3. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\USBSTOR]
4. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\PCI\VEN_1033&DEV_0035&SUBSYS_17351033&REV_43]
5. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\PCI\VEN_1033&DEV_00E0&SUBSYS_00E01735&REV_04]
6. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\PCI\VEN_1033&DEV_0035&SUBSYS_10331033&REV_43]
7. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7112&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_01]

P.S

If we all start posting our keys we can have a full list.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 08 September 2012 - 09:42 AM.

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#5
jaclaz

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@PROBLEMCHYLD
I am not sure to get the last part of your post. :unsure:

The "last four" keys are hardware dependent, every hardware will have it's own Ven and Dev.
VEN_1033&DEV_0035&REV_43 is a PCI to USB Host controller by NEC
VEN_1033&DEV_00E0&REV_04 is a USB 2.0 Host Controller by NEC
VEN_8086&DEV_7112&REV_01 is a PIIX4/4E/4M USB Interface by Intel Corporation
http://www.pcidatabase.com/

and:
http://www.msfn.org/...ng-at-registry/
http://web.archive.o...2/downloads.htm
(maybe PCI.ZIP can be *somehow* reused in combination with the csv or tab delimited available from tne pcidatabase site)

jaclaz

#6
PROBLEMCHYLD

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@PROBLEMCHYLD
I am not sure to get the last part of your post. :unsure:

The "last four" keys are hardware dependent, every hardware will have it's own Ven and Dev.
VEN_1033&DEV_0035&REV_43 is a PCI to USB Host controller by NEC
VEN_1033&DEV_00E0&REV_04 is a USB 2.0 Host Controller by NEC
VEN_8086&DEV_7112&REV_01 is a PIIX4/4E/4M USB Interface by Intel Corporation
http://www.pcidatabase.com/

and:
http://www.msfn.org/...ng-at-registry/
http://web.archive.o...2/downloads.htm
(maybe PCI.ZIP can be *somehow* reused in combination with the csv or tab delimited available from tne pcidatabase site)

jaclaz

The last 4 are for my system. I just posted them as an example so users will have an idea on what to look for.
If everyone did this, it would be easy just to import the reg file before or after running main updates.
I have been playing with this for a few hours trying to make sure everything works. So far so good.

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U98SESP3 03-11-2013


#7
rloew

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I have found you doNOT need safe mode to delete the USB drivers only if you have done the following below.
The first 3 registry applies to all Win98 systems.

1. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\HID]
2. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\USB]
3. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\USBSTOR]

These 5 also need to be deleted for a more complete cleanup:

1. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\SCSI]
2. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\HID]
3. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\SCSIAdapter]
4. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\Storage]
5. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\USB]

A program will be needed to recurse the PCI keys to identify the USB Controller Drivers.

In addition, individual Driver Manufacturers create their own Keys in Enum and Class for their IOS Drivers as well.

This approach, like the one in USESP3, will be problematical for USB Keyboard and Mouse Users.
A more selective approach is needed.
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#8
jaclaz

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The last 4 are for my system. I just posted them as an example so users will have an idea on what to look for.
If everyone did this, it would be easy just to import the reg file before or after running main updates.
I have been playing with this for a few hours trying to make sure everything works. So far so good.


Actually, it would be easier if you could test the mentioned PCI.EXE and verifies that it can identify correctly your hardware.

I mean, we have already a complete list of PCI devices, no need to rebuild it piece by piece by user's contribution, let's see if we can find a way to use the existing lists and tools in such a way to make your procedure easy to replicate to the final users.

jaclaz

#9
PROBLEMCHYLD

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I have found you doNOT need safe mode to delete the USB drivers only if you have done the following below.
The first 3 registry applies to all Win98 systems.

1. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\HID]
2. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\USB]
3. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\USBSTOR]

These 5 also need to be deleted for a more complete cleanup:

1. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\SCSI]
2. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\HID]
3. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\SCSIAdapter]
4. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\Storage]
5. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\USB]

A program will be needed to recurse the PCI keys to identify the USB Controller Drivers.

In addition, individual Driver Manufacturers create their own Keys in Enum and Class for their IOS Drivers as well.

This approach, like the one in USESP3, will be problematical for USB Keyboard and Mouse Users.
A more selective approach is needed.

Thanks, I am trying to figure out the USB Keyboard and Mouse issue. Came across this in the process. I think you guys are a big help with the links and suggestions.

Here's a before and after screenshot of the USBDEL.REG files.
It works as if I deleted all the drivers in safe mode. It works before or after main updates.
You can see that my Human Interface Devices, Storage Device and Universal Serial Bus controller are gone after the import of the reg file.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 08 September 2012 - 12:19 PM.

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#10
rloew

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Here's a before and after screenshot of the USBDEL.REG files.
It works as if I deleted all the drivers in safe mode. It works before or after main updates.
You can see that my Human Interface Devices, Storage Device and Universal Serial Bus controller are gone after the import of the reg file.

Deleting the Enum Keys works but leaves a lot of clutter in the Class Key.
Your file will need a list of every USB Controller ID in existence.

I have a .REG File that deletes both Keys entirely and replaces them with a bare minimum set of non-discoverable entries. It comes in handy when moving Windows 9x from one machine to another.
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#11
PROBLEMCHYLD

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Deleting the Enum Keys works but leaves a lot of clutter in the Class Key.
Your file will need a list of every USB Controller ID in existence.

I have a .REG File that deletes both Keys entirely and replaces them with a bare minimum set of non-discoverable entries. It comes in handy when moving Windows 9x from one machine to another.

I need a tool like Devcon. I was just experimenting trying to come up with a universal solution. I won't give up though.
The PCI.EXE did recognize my hardware but not my USB 2.0 adapter.
Thats means another tool will have to be added for add-on adapters.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 08 September 2012 - 12:49 PM.

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#12
jaclaz

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The PCI.EXE did recognize my hardware but not my USB 2.0 adapter.
Thats means another tool will have to be added for add-on adapters.

You mean the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Enum\PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7112&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_01 or an actual USB device (under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\USB or where)? :unsure:
That tool is limtied to PCI, by design.

Can you see them with USBview (GUI):
http://www.ftdichip....t/Utilities.htm

jaclaz

#13
zuko1

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I too had the USB Keyboard + Mouse problem + overcame it with PS/2 Keyboard / Mouse like rloew advised (But hate using them for all the known reasons) but, it was worth it just to use this service pack as it's so good. If the USB Keyboard/Mouse fix could be implemented into the installer it would be the best SP i ever used in 98 se . P.S Thanks rloew for starting this Thread as i too wanted to reply to the last one but couldn't. P.P.S I did manage to get them working with drivers from the 98 CD but it reverted back to non functional on restart.

Edited by zuko1, 08 September 2012 - 02:34 PM.


#14
PROBLEMCHYLD

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I too had the USB Keyboard + Mouse problem + overcame it with PS/2 Keyboard / Mouse like rloew advised (But hate using them for all the known reasons) but, it was worth it just to use this service pack as it's so good. If the USB Keyboard/Mouse fix could be implemented into the installer it would be the best SP i ever used in 98 se . P.S Thanks rloew for starting this Thread as i too wanted to reply to the last one but couldn't. P.P.S I did manage to get them working with drivers from the 98 CD but it reverted back to non functional on restart.

I need some tools to work with. I need some suggestions. I am working on it as we speak searching high and low.
I wonder if some type of emulator can be used or a generic safe mode driver? :ph34r:

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 08 September 2012 - 02:46 PM.

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#15
ReK67

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Thank you ALL for your advice & replies !
I was just made aware of this new topic via an email from rloew (personal conversation)
I kept watching the SP 3.6 topic for response and saw none.
I will read all, carefully, and reply as soon as I can with my progress.
I just wanted to reply quickly, to let all know that I am not ignoring your attempts for solutions.
Thanks again for making me feel welcome and for your help.
ReK67

#16
vanceayres

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I would like to help out in this endeavor. I am aware of the problem. I installed U98SE SP3.5 & then couldn't get the USB keyboard/mouse I hooked up to work. I reloaded back to 98SE only & confirmed that the USB keyboard/mouse then worked without issue. I then loaded U98SE SP3.5 again & had the same problem-broken USB keyboard/mouse. I have tried numerous things trying to fix the problem that I won't go into now but what is relevant is that I tried U98SE SP3 beta4 & the USB keyboard/mouse still works after the install of this. I don't have any other USB devices being used on this computer so what I would offer to do is reload 98SE only & then try the different SPs so we know which one of the SPs actually breaks the USB keyboard/mouse. I'm hoping then by looking at what was changed between the SPs we could figure out what is breaking the USB keyboard/mouse. Is it possible for you to make the prior SPs available so I could do this testing? Thanks!! Vance

#17
PROBLEMCHYLD

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For all the people who rely only on USB Mice and Keyboards and canNOT use PS/2 Mice and Keyboards, please post here.
I know exactly what the problem is and will be fix immediately. I don't have this problem because I have both USB/PS2 devices. I was able to reproduce this error by not using my PS/2 Mice and Keyboard.

Solution 1

I'm working on solution 2.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 10 September 2012 - 04:01 PM.

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#18
rloew

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For all the people who rely only on USB Mice and Keyboards and canNOT use PS/2 Mice and Keyboards, please post here.
I know exactly what the problem is and will be fix immediately. I don't have this problem because I have both USB/PS2 devices. I was able to reproduce this error by not using my PS/2 Mice and Keyboard.

Solution 1

I'm working on solution 2.

I created a temporary Partition on one of my Computers. Installed an original Version of Windows 98SE. Installed an USB Keyboard, Mouse, Headset, and an USB Key using my Generic Lexar Drivers.

I installed U98SESP3, rebooted into Safe Mode, removed all USB Host Controllers, and USB Root Hubs, and rebooted into normal mode.

After the Controllers were reinstalled, only the USB Key reconnected without being redetected. The other three were reinstalled and none worked. All were duplicated and had errors on at least one copy.

This indicates that USB Keyboards and Mice cannot be left installed while the USB Controllers are being replaced. This means that a PS/2 Keyboard or Mouse is Mandatory at least temporarily.

At present I do not have a solution for people who are using a Motherboard with no PS/2 Connector.
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#19
PROBLEMCHYLD

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I created a temporary Partition on one of my Computers. Installed an original Version of Windows 98SE. Installed an USB Keyboard, Mouse, Headset, and an USB Key using my Generic Lexar Drivers.

I installed U98SESP3, rebooted into Safe Mode, removed all USB Host Controllers, and USB Root Hubs, and rebooted into normal mode.

After the Controllers were reinstalled, only the USB Key reconnected without being redetected. The oth/er three were reinstalled and none worked. All were duplicated and had errors on at least one copy.

This indicates that USB Keyboards and Mice cannot be left installed while the USB Controllers are being replaced. This means that a PS/2 Keyboard or Mouse is Mandatory at least temporarily.

At present I do not have a solution for people who are using a Motherboard with no PS/2 Connector.

This means, I will have to remove USB drivers altogether.
Making them optional is not an option because users would still have this problem if they don't have a PS/2 Mice/Keyboards.
I'm still working on it.

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#20
rloew

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I created a temporary Partition on one of my Computers. Installed an original Version of Windows 98SE. Installed an USB Keyboard, Mouse, Headset, and an USB Key using my Generic Lexar Drivers.

I installed U98SESP3, rebooted into Safe Mode, removed all USB Host Controllers, and USB Root Hubs, and rebooted into normal mode.

After the Controllers were reinstalled, only the USB Key reconnected without being redetected. The oth/er three were reinstalled and none worked. All were duplicated and had errors on at least one copy.

This indicates that USB Keyboards and Mice cannot be left installed while the USB Controllers are being replaced. This means that a PS/2 Keyboard or Mouse is Mandatory at least temporarily.

At present I do not have a solution for people who are using a Motherboard with no PS/2 Connector.

This means, I will have to remove USB drivers altogether.
Making them optional is not an option because users would still have this problem if they don't have a PS/2 Mice/Keyboards.
I'm still working on it.

Even now I think the majority of Motherboards have at least one PS/2 Port although I saw some with none. By switching from Gigabyte to Asus, I got a 2 PS/2 Port Motherboard in December 2011.

Another problem I found is that I could not get my USB headset working again. I am going to repeat my experiment using your Instructions as the beginning point rather than trying to preserve existing Registry entries to see what difference it makes.
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#21
PROBLEMCHYLD

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A very BIG Thank you. I will watch for your postings.
Some of you guys were right, there is no overall solution as of yet.
We are working on it. Thank you for your patience.

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U98SESP3 03-11-2013


#22
LoneCrusader

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This means, I will have to remove USB drivers altogether.
Making them optional is not an option because users would still have this problem if they don't have a PS/2 Mice/Keyboards.
I'm still working on it.

Technically there's no reason they could not be left as an option, provided an appropriate warning NOT to choose that option if you use USB Keyboards & Mice is given.

Just for the record. :angel

#23
PROBLEMCHYLD

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Technically there's no reason they could not be left as an option, provided an appropriate warning NOT to choose that option if you use USB Keyboards & Mice is given.

Just for the record. :angel

This won't work either because all updated files resides in the SP3.CAB.
If a user installs a new USB device, the files from SP3.CAB will be installed causing the same issue(s).
This is considered the default instead of the Win98 cd cabs.
I will also have to remove each file one at a time, just to be safe avoiding other mistakes, making sure I don't break anything else in the process. Tampering with the Main Updates option is serious.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 11 September 2012 - 10:14 AM.

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U98SESP3 03-11-2013


#24
vanceayres

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I would like to report SUCCESS in getting my USB keyboard/mouse to work with SP 3.5. For the record, I don't have any other USB devices on this system-just the USB keyboard/mouse & that's it. I have tried NUMEROUS other things in the past but what got me on the right track was Problemchyld's link called Solution 1 that was an article by USBman called Safe Mode Cleanup of the Device Manager. That information combined with my past experience got it working. I followed USBman's directions & then after the restart back to normal mode, before I plugged in the USB keyboard I moved the SP3.cab file out of the C:|Windows\System\Precopy folder & dropped it on the desktop. Of course through all of this I had a PS/2 keyboard & mouse plugged in until I got the keyboard working & subsequently the mouse also. With the plugging in of the USB keyboard & the start of the Add New Hardware Wizard I had to tell it manually where to get the driver files. The only place I could find the 1st file it needed was in the SP3.cab file. This file was USBccgp.sys. I copied this file out of the SP3.cab & dropped it into a folder I had created named C:\Windows\Options. I had my original CAB files from the 98SE install CD in a folder just under Options named Cabs so for all the rest of the files that were needed for the wizard I pointed it to this location. I believe the only other files needed were HIDclass.sys, HIDparse.sys & HIDusb.sys. Even though it complained that I was replacing newer files I told it to use the ones in the Cabs folder from the original 98SE install CD. Just to make sure it would still work after a restart I restarted the computer, unplugging the PS/2 keyboard before it went through the POST. THE USB KEYBOARD NOW WORKS!!! I followed the same procedure for the mouse & got it to work also. I know this is just a workaround so I am anticipating when you have it all figured out Problemchyld. I hope this helps you in some small way to get these kinks out. Thank you so much for your untiring efforts in this area. I work for a Christian radio station that has limited finances but uses audio cards that only work in ISA slots (Dont't laugh, they work great even though they are ancient) & on top of that their software only runs on 98 so the resources you provide are invaluable. When I had to reload a computer recently I found Windows updates no longer available so after a little research I was very thankful to find your service especially since it was so easy to implement. BTW, I would assume you have pulled the download of SP3.7 down until you get this USB problem figured out. Is that right?

#25
PROBLEMCHYLD

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Its good that you followed all the necessary steps. I'm glad you have it working. There is only a slight workaround in 3.7. All the instructions that has been listed needs to be followed until we find an overall solution. Like rloew said, most boards has at least one PS/2 connection. This is the only solution for now. Thanks again for testing. It was smart of you to remove the SP3.CAB, as I said earlier it becomes the default for the Win98 cab files.You don't need to remove the cab file in 3.7. rloew, if you have some time, maybe you can whip up a quick tutorial and add it to the first post. Then anyone who's having these issues can maybe benefit from the solution. Thanks everyone.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 11 September 2012 - 12:58 PM.

Believe God is the Alpha and Omega.
Believe Jesus Christ died for our sins.
Repent for your sins now or there will be
BLOOD

The Path to God


U98SESP3 03-11-2013





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