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USB Keyboards and Mice

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#26
rloew

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Technically there's no reason they could not be left as an option, provided an appropriate warning NOT to choose that option if you use USB Keyboards & Mice is given.

Just for the record. :angel

This won't work either because all updated files resides in the SP3.CAB.
If a user installs a new USB device, the files from SP3.CAB will be installed causing the same issue(s).
This is considered the default instead of the Win98 cd cabs.
I will also have to remove each file one at a time, just to be safe avoiding other mistakes, making sure I don't break anything else in the process. Tampering with the Main Updates option is serious.

This would explain your reluctance to add options and some of the things you have said before that others did not understand. I noticed the many references to SP3.CAB, even after a complete device reset. It is a limitation of the your design. You may want to consider a different design for SP4.

I repeated my earlier experiments using the original instructions. I was able to get my USB Keyboard and Mouse to operate, the USB Audio is definitely broken. The USBAUDIO.SYS has dependencies on KS.SYS that requires KS.SYS to be updated. U98SESP3 does not update KS.SYS. Windows Update did this in the Directx update. There is a dependency on DRMK.SYS which is not in Windows 98SE, Windows Update or U98SESP3. The File does exist in Windows XP.

I did find a way to reinstall USB without a PS/2 Keyboard or Mouse, but it was a long involved procedure using a Script and a Mouse Click Generator I wrote.
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#27
PROBLEMCHYLD

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You may want to consider a different design for SP4.

This was Gape's design by default. I didn't change it because he must have had a very good reason for this. I'm sorry but I don't know of any other solution.

I repeated my earlier experiments using the original instructions. I was able to get my USB Keyboard and Mouse to operate, the USB Audio is definitely broken. The USBAUDIO.SYS has dependencies on KS.SYS that requires KS.SYS to be updated. U98SESP3 does not update KS.SYS. Windows Update did this in the Directx update. There is a dependency on DRMK.SYS which is not in Windows 98SE, Windows Update or U98SESP3. The File does exist in Windows XP.

Was everything fixed after you installed the latest DirectX?

I did find a way to reinstall USB without a PS/2 Keyboard or Mouse, but it was a long involved procedure using a Script and a Mouse Click Generator I wrote.

Do you think this solution can be use in the Service Pack?

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U98SESP3 03-11-2013


#28
LoneCrusader

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This won't work either because all updated files resides in the SP3.CAB.
If a user installs a new USB device, the files from SP3.CAB will be installed causing the same issue(s).
This is considered the default instead of the Win98 cd cabs.
I will also have to remove each file one at a time, just to be safe avoiding other mistakes, making sure I don't break anything else in the process. Tampering with the Main Updates option is serious.

Hmmm... :unsure:

Well, I do have an idea that should solve the issues at hand and keep you from having to remove all of the USB updates.

(rloew please comment on this and confirm whether or not it should work :thumbup )


Replacing the USB 1.1 drivers seems to be causing this issue. If you revert back to the Windows 98SE USB Updates/HotFixes for USB 1.1 WITHOUT using the Windows ME USB 1.1 stack (back to NUSB 3.3) and remove my combined USB.INF, then users should not have to remove USB 1.1 devices & controllers and should not have this problem.

Having the updated 98SE HotFix versions is better than having no USB updates at all, and this would prevent you from having to remove the USB2 and USB Storage files.

If users want to use the ME USB 1.1 stack then they will have to have PS2 Keyboards & Mice, or they will have to put the combined USB.INF & ME USB stack in their \WIN98 folder when doing a clean install. (This would override the 98SE versions from the beginning, leaving no errors from changing them later.)

Edited by LoneCrusader, 11 September 2012 - 11:23 PM.


#29
rloew

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I repeated my earlier experiments using the original instructions. I was able to get my USB Keyboard and Mouse to operate, the USB Audio is definitely broken. The USBAUDIO.SYS has dependencies on KS.SYS that requires KS.SYS to be updated. U98SESP3 does not update KS.SYS. Windows Update did this in the Directx update. There is a dependency on DRMK.SYS which is not in Windows 98SE, Windows Update or U98SESP3. The File does exist in Windows XP.

Was everything fixed after you installed the latest DirectX?

I didn't try. Without DRMK.SYS it would not have been enough. I don't know if the DRMK.SYS in my XP System is useable or not.


I did find a way to reinstall USB without a PS/2 Keyboard or Mouse, but it was a long involved procedure using a Script and a Mouse Click Generator I wrote.

Do you think this solution can be use in the Service Pack?

Right now it is rather messy and involves many manual steps. I suspect there is a better way. A silent install similar to what happens during Windows Installation would probably be the best solution.
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#30
dencorso

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With all due respect, what's the advantage of adding the ME USB 1.1 stack?
I know they're designed to work with the ME USB 2.0 stack, but up to NUSB 3.3 we were using the 98SE USB 1.1 stack with the latest available hotfixes (some of which are compiled latter than the original ME files) and it worked all right (and was pretty well time proven). So, forgive me if this was discussed previously, but I confess I don't remember it ever having been discussed...
Later edit:
That's because I must be getting senile... These <link> <link> are the relevant posts, right?
But I do think LoneCrusader's idea is worth a shot...

#31
rloew

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I updated KS.SYS and copied DRMK.SYS from Windows XP SP3. The KS.SYS was fine but the DRMK.SYS has unimplemented dependencies on NTOSKRNL.EXE
I replaced USBAUDIO.SYS with the Windows 98SE Version and the USB Headset worked.
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#32
PROBLEMCHYLD

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You might want to try older versions. This is how I normally test files. I always start from the highest version and work my way backwards. It saves a lot of time from having to replace the same file with an updated version.

DRMK.SYS 5.1.2600.1106 XP SP1
DRMK.SYS 5.1.2600.2180 XP SP2

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#33
rloew

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You might want to try older versions. This is how I normally test files. I always start from the highest version and work my way backwards. It saves a lot of time from having to replace the same file with an updated version.

DRMK.SYS 5.1.2600.1106 XP SP1
DRMK.SYS 5.1.2600.2180 XP SP2

USBAUDIO.SYS 4.1.2222 suits me just fine. If it isn't broken, I don't fix it. Choosing the newest and shiniest is a prescription for unintended consequences as occured above.
Backing off on the USBAUDIO.SYS version would probably be a better solution than trying to get DRMK.SYS to work. There is no guarantee that you can use any version of DRMK.SYS.

I used the SP to test the Installation issue with USB Keyboards and Mice. I threw in the Headset and Lexar Driver to determine the impact of a Controller Driver replacement. The question of what needs to be removed when updating the Controller Drivers has been mentioned a number of times in relation to the SP, but no one seemed to be interested in actually testing it. I decided to kill two birds with one stone.
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#34
PROBLEMCHYLD

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The latest hotfix/update for Win98 USBAUDIO.SYS is USBAUDIO.SYS 4.10.0.2224. If you are happy, then I am super happy. Thanks.

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#35
LoneCrusader

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With all due respect, what's the advantage of adding the ME USB 1.1 stack?
I know they're designed to work with the ME USB 2.0 stack, but up to NUSB 3.3 we were using the 98SE USB 1.1 stack with the latest available hotfixes (some of which are compiled latter than the original ME files) and it worked all right (and was pretty well time proven). So, forgive me if this was discussed previously, but I confess I don't remember it ever having been discussed...
Later edit:
That's because I must be getting senile... These <link> <link> are the relevant posts, right?
But I do think LoneCrusader's idea is worth a shot...

Adding the ME USB 1.1 stack enables the use of USBCCGP.SYS. (Remember RetroOS's USB Composite Device experiment?)

However, if changing the USB 1.1 stack is going to cause widespread problems, then it is best to revert back to using the updated 98SE stack. Using the ME stack can be reserved to use in specific situations only, or can be added during a fresh install as I outlined above if desired.

Edited by LoneCrusader, 12 September 2012 - 09:47 PM.


#36
rloew

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The latest hotfix/update for Win98 USBAUDIO.SYS is USBAUDIO.SYS 4.10.0.2224. If you are happy, then I am super happy. Thanks.

So far I have used few if any of the Hotfixes. Mostly I use the WU and some official updates related to my projects. Outside of 98SE I use the ME SCANDISK and some ME USB Files plus the USB 2.0 stack from NUSB. The rest are custom mods. I have created a Preinstalled CD with my Mods and a WU only Service Pack (SP0) for new installations.
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#37
rloew

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You might want to try older versions. This is how I normally test files. I always start from the highest version and work my way backwards. It saves a lot of time from having to replace the same file with an updated version.

DRMK.SYS 5.1.2600.1106 XP SP1
DRMK.SYS 5.1.2600.2180 XP SP2

These would not have worked. DRMK.SYS 5.1.2600.0 from XP RTM already has the problem dependencies.

I found a DRMK.SYS File in Windows ME which does not have the dependencies but the USB Headset still does not work with the newer USBAUDIO.SYS.

Edited by rloew, 14 September 2012 - 10:11 AM.

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#38
ReK67

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Greetings to all
I am pleased to report a successful install of SP 3.7 on my system. (See very 1st post for details) Both USB keyboard & mouse remained attached during install, which was: Fresh install of Win98 SE, all necessary drivers ( for no Device Manager Issues), IE 5.5, Direct-x 9.0c. Installed SP 3.7 Main Updates only. Shut down & rebooted to Safe Mode to remove all USB stuff in Device Manager following info from usbman.com's order of removal.
http://www.usbman.com/Guides/Cleanup%20Device%20Manager%20Safe%20Mode.htm

Delete USB peripheral devices (Scanners, Printers, Cameras etc.)
Delete HID and/or Composite USB (Human Interface Devices)
Delete USB Root Hub(s) (Universal Host Controllers)
Delete USB Host Controller(s) (Universal Host Controllers)

Upon reboot & installation of SP 3.7 files, after the Standard Open HCI Controllers finish screen appeared, both the KB & mouse were lost/frozen/locked up again. To proceed, I rebooted with a old PS/2 mouse attached also. This allowed all later finished screens to be clicked OK/finish. USB keyboard was then detected & installed along with USB mouse & USB contollers, etc. PS/2 was removed after all was complete & shut down. Hip-Hip-Hooray !!!
All works so far, so good, & no conflicts in device manager.
Many thanks to you, PROBLEMCHYLD & all others for your hard work and dedication to SP 3.x and all the other GOOD STUFF in the Win 98 projects area.
I'll keep you posted as more system usage & program installs occur. Will try not to open anymore Can 'O Worms !
Thanks again, ReK67

#39
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That's Great! :thumbup

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U98SESP3 03-11-2013


#40
rloew

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Upon reboot & installation of SP 3.7 files, after the Standard Open HCI Controllers finish screen appeared, both the KB & mouse were lost/frozen/locked up again. To proceed, I rebooted with a old PS/2 mouse attached also. This allowed all later finished screens to be clicked OK/finish. USB keyboard was then detected & installed along with USB mouse & USB contollers, etc. PS/2 was removed after all was complete & shut down. Hip-Hip-Hooray !!!
All works so far, so good, & no conflicts in device manager.

You are the second person who has had success using my suggestion. The same method works with an USB Keyboard instead.
I am still experimenting with ways to do the install with no PS/2 devices at all, as this would also be necessary if the Drivers are refreshed.
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#41
rloew

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I have determined that the USB Controller and Root Hub Drivers have the same Registry Configuration before and after updating from the Windows 98SE RTM Drivers to those in U98SESP3 Version 3.7. This means that they do not have to be removed. This is also true of the USB Mouse Driver except for the need for WDMSTUB. This makes it possible to install U98SESP3 without requiring a PS/2 Keyboard or Mouse. There appears to be a flaw in WDMSTUB that occurs when the Hardware Installer tries to run a new Instance of it while it is already running.

For those of you who are desperate or enjopy Herculean tasks, here is the Procedure:

1. If using my RAM Limitation Patch, make a backup of WINDOWS\SYSTEM\VMM32\VMM.VXD if any.
2. Install U98SESP3 but do not reboot at end.
3. Unplug but do not remove USB Devices. Keep Keyboard and Mouse connected.
4. If using my RAM Limitation Patch Replace original VMM.VXD saved in step 1. If there was none, delete the new one.
5. Go to WINDOWS\SYSTEM\PRECOPY folder.
6. From SP3.CAB, extract USBCCGP.SYS, UHCD.SYS and HOTPLUG.DLL.
7. Put USBCCGP.SYS and UHCD.SYS in WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS folder.
8. Put HOTPLUG.DLL in WINDOWS\SYSTEM folder.
9. Go to WINDOWS\INF folder.
10. Edit the HIDDEV.INF File. Remove the text WDMSTUB.SYS and the following comma.
11. Edit the USBSTOR.INF File. Remove the text WDMSTUB.SYS and the following comma.
12. Edit the WINDOWS\WIN.INI File. At the end of the [windows] Section add the following line:

SkipMouseRedetect=0

13. Reboot into Safe Mode.
14. Go into Device Manager.
15. Remove all entries in the Keyboard Section.
16. Remove the System and Consumer Control Devices in the HID Section.
17. Remove all Composite Device entries in the USB Section.
18. Remove all Mass Storage Device entries in the USB Section.
19. Remove USB 2.0 Root Hubs in the USB Section.
20. Remove Enhanced Controller entries in the USB Section.
21. Remove other entries in the USB Section except the remaining Controller and Root Hub entries.
22. Remove USB Devices in the STORAGE, SCSIAdapter, Hard Disk, Disk Drives and any Vendor Named Section.
23. Install my WDMEX.VXD (still Alpha but enough for this task) and skip to Step 27.
Or run Steps 24-26.
24. Run REGEDIT.
25. Search for "usbhub.sys". Find the first one that is named NTMPDriver. This should be one of the USB Root Hub entries.
26. Replace the data with "wdmstub.sys,usbhub.sys".
27. Reboot.
28. You will probably encounter lockups as devices are loaded. If so reboot and try again. You may have to do this more than once.
29. Edit the WINDOWS\WIN.INI File to remove the SkipMouseRedetect Line added earlier.
30. If using my RAM Limitation Patch, remove the MaxPhysPage Line from WINDOWS\SYSTEM.INI and either remove or adjust the MaxFileCache Line.

This procedure works on one of my Computers. There is no guarantee it will work on yours.
It assumes that you are using the original USB Drivers that come with Windows 98SE for the Controllers, USB Keyboard and Mouse.
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#42
Hu$tle

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You expect users to go through 30 steps instead of 5 just to get things working? You must be out your mind to think that. Not only that, you expect us to purchase 2 of your programs when its cheaper to borrow a PS/2 device or buy one from a pawn shop. I don' t think you have common sense at all. You say WDMDTUB is flawed but you have yet to come up with a better solution. So far WDMSTUB has been working and its free.

#43
rloew

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You expect users to go through 30 steps instead of 5 just to get things working?

You can take your flames somewhere else.

I guided people to the 5 step procedure in Post #1. This 30 step procedure is for people who do not have PS/2 Ports and cannot use a PS/2 device.

My RAM Limitation Patch is compromised by the installation of the SP. I added instructions for people who already are using the RAM Limitation Patch. If you don't have the RAM Limitation Patch installed, you can ignore the steps listed.

My WDMEX.VXD program is an alternative to WDMSTUB without the flaw mentioned. If you bothered to read the instructions, I give an alternative procedure that gets around the flaw but of course involves more work.

If I was working for Microsoft, there wouldn't be any programs for Windows 98.

You will have more room for those eggs when you take your foot out of your mouth.
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#44
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You expect users to go through 30 steps instead of 5 just to get things working?

Hu$tle, please lighten up. You're looking for problems where there isn't any.

rloew posted this temporary solution at the request of PROBLEMCHYLD. It is complex, and he doesn't have to post it, yet he did in order to help those who can't wait for a better solution. Nowhere does it mention the purchase of his software. He is only making sure that users of his patches don't run into any issues. Those who have his patch will follow the indicated steps, and those who do not will skip it. If you do not like the current solution, give him more time to test and produce a better one.

#45
zuko1

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@ Hu$tle I'm just grateful for any help with windows 98 albeit paid for or free. Without the GENIUSES on this forum Windows 98/ME would have been dead years ago. I'v amazed friends of mine with what Windows 98 is capable of these days and it's all thanks to these VERY skilled programmers who put the time in to help this aging operating system. :)

#46
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rloew

What about creating an WDMEX.VXD version to the same point where WDMSTUB.SYS is? Maybe add your WDMEX.VXD to SP3. If its equivalent to WDMSTUB.SYS, then there is no lost. This might be helpful in the future. The extended version, users will have to pay for. If its not a good solution, I'll keep trying to come up with a better one.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 19 September 2012 - 03:27 PM.

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U98SESP3 03-11-2013


#47
jaclaz

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Cannot remember if already talked about :blushing: .
I came across this and thought it might be of use (or completely fail to):
http://retired.beyon...ls/dddtools.htm

Device Driver Remover for Windows 95 & Windows 98
Writing PNP device drivers under Windows 95 or 98? The Remove Driver Utility follows Microsoft's directions layed out in the Device Driver Kit, to remove all traces of your device driver. This allows Windows to ask for a new driver once the device is plugged in again. Great for USB WDM Device Driver Programming.


Posted Image

http://retired.beyon...ools/remove.zip

jaclaz

#48
PROBLEMCHYLD

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Cannot remember if already talked about :blushing: .
I came across this and thought it might be of use (or completely fail to):
http://retired.beyon...ls/dddtools.htm

Device Driver Remover for Windows 95 & Windows 98
Writing PNP device drivers under Windows 95 or 98? The Remove Driver Utility follows Microsoft's directions layed out in the Device Driver Kit, to remove all traces of your device driver. This allows Windows to ask for a new driver once the device is plugged in again. Great for USB WDM Device Driver Programming.


Posted Image

http://retired.beyon...ools/remove.zip

jaclaz

Thanks, but this won't work. It doesn't automate the tasks needed to delete all necessary drivers. With the tool, one will have manually delete which is not ideal. Its basically the same as going through Safemode. We need a tool to scan for all USB devices, delete them, reboot and re-detect on startup without the users input. I haven't given up yet and have no intentions to do so. If we don't find a universal solution, I will be forced to rest my hand. :}

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U98SESP3 03-11-2013


#49
Drugwash

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I'll be looking into this as soon as I can take a break from the other projects (most importantly Dll Details, which must be brought to a better level). The issue popped up earlier in the SP thread and I've mentioned there the care that must be taken when building such tool, not to break something else or allow its usage for malicious purposes.

Anyway, it's good that the USB input devices issue came up now as it offers the necessary edge to approach the subject in the right manner. Problem is, I don't have a USB keyboard to test with - actually there is one Logitech G15, but it's defective and couldn't fix it as it needs spare parts. I do have a working USB mouse but that's not enough to test such tool, if/when I get to work on it. And come to think about it, there might not be any spare machine around for testing, with a USB 2.0 controller... Ugh! :(

#50
loblo

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Thanks, but this won't work. It doesn't automate the tasks needed to delete all necessary drivers. With the tool, one will have manually delete which is not ideal. Its basically the same as going through Safemode. We need a tool to scan for all USB devices, delete them, reboot and re-detect on startup without the users input. I haven't given up yet and have no intentions to do so. If we don't find a universal solution, I will be forced to rest my hand. :}

Isn't deleting all the USB keys under HKLM\Enum, which can be done with a batch file using reg.exe or the silent import of a registry file with key deletion entries, enough?

That should flush everything out, removing all the junk that accumulates there, and whatever USB device is still plugged on your machine should be redetected and reinstalled automatically on reboot, no?

Edited by dencorso, 16 October 2012 - 08:59 PM.





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