Jump to content

Welcome to MSFN Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account



Photo

Virtual Memory on USB

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#26
snoopy55

snoopy55

    Newbie

  • Member
  • 11 posts
  • Joined 11-October 12
  • OS:XP Pro x64
  • Country: Country Flag
Ponch - you evidently missed the first line of that post...... "After a bit of experimenting I found some interesting facts.". If I had known all of this in the first place I would never have bothered even building a cable to create a internal USB socket to plug the USB card into.

Jaclaz - to bad you didn't make that statement and make it clear for us "n00b" fools", or should I phrase that 'THIS "n00b" fool', a long time ago...... no, now that I think of it, you would have had to climb down your ladder to floor level, maybe even have to go into the basement, to answer it that way.

To both of you - My sincerest apologies for wasting your time with a question that was really uncalled for on a forum like this that only calls to upper level, excuse me, the highest level, computer experts.























(i can't wait to see the replies to this one....... or should i bother...........)


How to remove advertisement from MSFN

#27
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Well, I thought that my post #9, which I will re-quote for clarity:

@snoopy55
The ability to put a pagefile on a USB stick is determined by a number of things (ways the OS "sees" the device).

What I find very strange (besides what you want to achieve) is what you report. :w00t:

A "normal" MS NT based OS won't allow having a pagefile on an "external" disk, let alone a "removable" one.

To allow this normally a filter driver is used, see here for DiskMod:
http://reboot.pro/9461/
http://reboot.pro/9461/#entry86619/
which comes also in a 64 bit version, though tested only on later systems (Vista :ph34r: and 7) AFAICR.


jaclaz

was as plain as possible both in the terms used and in the concepts, and I don't see it as coming from any presumed "upper level" or "ladder", it represents a set of plain statements, coming from someone that not only - as it has later become evident - found those same facts before you did, but additionally provided relevant links/info specifically targeted to the matter leading to a possible solution.

It is not like I posted (and I actually could have posted this :whistle: , though I did NOT :angel):

You dumb n00b! :realmad: It's not possible to have a pagefile on a USB stick!
Where the heck did you learn that absurd notion? :w00t:

nor I did post (and again I could have done that) post a link to the known chocolate-covered banana issue:
http://homepage.ntlw...red-banana.html

I mantain that what was posted was:
  • accurate
  • written in plain enough English
  • providing you a correct answer to the question you asked

As I see it the actual issue is/was simply that you were (BTW in perfect good faith :yes: ) so positively confident in your experience (both in the specific matter and in your general experience as machine language programmer or whatever) that you didn't contemplate in the least the possibility that your initial statement was the effect of your perceptions being deceived by the Virtual Memory control panel and more generally by the XP OS behaviour.

In another place, in another time, this was actually pre-coded in "Common Sense Advice", JFYI, point #f4.:
http://reboot.pro/82/

You may also want to notice how I never stated a particular experience in anything, nor a particular "superior" state (possibly the board "status" of Developer and the 10,000+ posts speak by themselves to this regard) whilst you stated:

....
and I used to be able to program in 8 different machine languages...........


And I'm not a NOOB, I've been building and working with computers since the early 80's.

so, if someone has attempted to, directly or indirectly, provide "credentials" to support his statements, and more loosely "self position" himself at a given level, that has not been me.

To be fair, you did post:

Just because I have never had a previous need to dig into the firmware of them only makes me uneducated with the firmware, not the whole thing. A person can build many systems, put a 20-year-old company on computer using a network ( a 2 wire network), rewrite programs, create maps for games, decipher and enlarge a game ( http://www.sidmeiers....net/portal.php ), and much more, without knowing what a 'pagefile' is and never having played in the Windows Registry.

which is exactly what has been demonstrated by the evolution of this thread, notwithstanding your good experience on other (albeit similarly technically oriented) fields/topics, you knew nothing about pagefiles and Virtual Memory and were tricked by the behaviour of the OS.

But now everything is (hopefully) clear and "cool", if any feathers were ruffled, they have been smoothed down again, and outside (at least here) though cold, the sun in shining....

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 13 November 2012 - 07:23 AM.


#28
snoopy55

snoopy55

    Newbie

  • Member
  • 11 posts
  • Joined 11-October 12
  • OS:XP Pro x64
  • Country: Country Flag
No, your post did not explain anything. You simply said it could not happen. The view on my system showed that it was happening. Now, if you had stated that the OS was showing it on the USB but in actuality it was using the C: drive and lying to you, I would have said "Thanks, that clears up everything!!" and gone on my merry way. But you seemed to have expected me to just accept what you had to say with no full explanation. Full explanations can come in very handy for those of us who chose not to dig into the full depths of MS and how it works.

The first 5 replies did not try to answer my question, they simply said the drive may not meet the required specs, doing so would be a big error, RAM is a way to do it, something about a small partition, and sacrificing a USB device.

Your reply then states that "The ability to put a pagefile on a USB stick is determined by a number of things (ways the OS "sees" the device)." which appears to be a partial explanation, then the strangeness of what I'm wanting to do and then that the OS won't allow me to do what I had done (in appearance on my system)

I then get attacked for my silly choice of words.

And it tends to go on and on.

Then, when I figure out where the OS is actually storing the pagefile.sys that it shows on the VM screen it is putting on the USB card, I get a "DUUUUHHHHHH, that's what I've been telling you all along"

I'm the administrator of a forum myself, and I have learned from experience what I stated years ago: (referring to map making) Sometimes, people like you and I tend to forget what we had to go thru when we first did these . "It is so simple that it just couldn't have been hard and what is this guys problem that he can't seem to just whip those maps out?"

Do not expect everyone to know and understand everything you do. Explain yourself. To say "What you are doing cannot be done, believe me" don't get it. Why can it not be done, and what is really happening would simplify things greatly. Sort of what a n00b like me did after I took the time to look into exactly what my system was doing as far as placement of the pagefile.sys

#29
submix8c

submix8c

    Inconceivable!

  • Patrons
  • 4,329 posts
  • Joined 14-September 05
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
...and finally (to attempt to polish off this "who's better than who" nonsense...

jaclaz and I have also had a "go" before and it actually means... NOTHING!!! We have the highest respect for each other. BTW, I know more MAINFRAME languages than you, but it does NOT mean I may know more HARDWARE than you, nor does it mean I am BETTER at said languages than you. There is something called SHARING INFO - be aware that SOME of it may be erroneous (as you found out) on either end.

In view of that, just let it go and pay more attention to the information and the phrasing (don't be touchy)...

P.S. VM is "kind of" a misnomer in general context - you mean it as "Virtual Memory", I use it as "Virtual Machine". I've always referenced it as Paging File, since this term is also applicable to Mainframes (ye olde IBM monsters). Also, one may have (erroneously) "assumed" since you're not a "n00b' that you would have known about the Explorer settings... ;)

Welcome to our world. :w00t:

edit - hi-lited a key point...
edit2 - clarification - LOGICALLY, the Page File can't "exist" on a Device that won't exist until defined (USB drivers loaded)... true? Hence the "filters"...

Edited by submix8c, 13 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

Posted Image


#30
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Sort of what a n00b like me did after I took the time to look into exactly what my system was doing as far as placement of the pagefile.sys

... possibly because jaclaz hinted the procedure to do this kind of tests.... :whistle:

To hopefully close this issue, once and for all, my post was not meant to be an "everything you ever wanted to know about pagefile and Virtual Memory and you never dared to ask" kind of post/tutorial/guide, it was a simple, plain answer to the question you asked, meant as a three step procedure:
  • hinting the possibility that your initial beliefs were not entirely correct:

    What I find very strange (besides what you want to achieve) is what you report.

  • stating the actual facts:

    The ability to put a pagefile on a USB stick is determined by a number of things (ways the OS "sees" the device).
    ....
    A "normal" MS NT based OS won't allow having a pagefile on an "external" disk, let alone a "removable" one.

  • providing a possible solution or anyway iinformation corroborating the previously exposed facts:

    To allow this normally a filter driver is used, see here for DiskMod:
    http://reboot.pro/9461/
    http://reboot.pro/9461/#entry86619/
    which comes also in a 64 bit version, though tested only on later systems (Vista and 7) AFAICR.


Now, re-reading the post for the nth time, following your critics on it, I am actually patting myself on the shoulder for having been able to sum up so well in a few lines all the essential points.

Now let's play "what if" ....
  • Could I have been more verbose and explicit? Yes :yes:.
  • Am I actually obliged by signed agreement to be more verbose and explicit when attempting to help people for free on the forum? No. :no:
  • Could you have been more "open" to suggestions (since you came here asking for them)? Yes :yes: .
  • Could you have been more convinced (as said I believe in perfect good faith) of your experience with Virtual Memory? No. :no:
  • Was such experience with Virtual Memory on 32 bit XP representing actual facts? No. :no:

Now, that is anyway the past, the actual issue has been cleared, let's get over it, OK?

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 13 November 2012 - 10:50 AM.


#31
dencorso

dencorso

    Iuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Supervisor
  • 5,946 posts
  • Joined 07-April 07
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

[off topic]

:blink: Foreign language? There's not a single word not in English in the thread jaclaz pointed you to. :wacko:


dencorso, am I to take it you are attempting to be funny there?

Just in case you are not.........

"I looked over the two sites you listed and there is to much foreign language there for me." The 'foreign language' reference is older than I am. I used it because of the fact that a foreign language is not something I can understand, and since I cannot understand what was posted on that site, it is like a foreign language to me. B)

@snoopy55: No I wasn't trying to be funny. You see, even if it was clear to me that you meant "not English" by "foreign language" and my reply is consistent with that understanding, and despite the fact that, way too many moons ago, when I actually lived in the US, I did hear "foreign language" meaning "ununderstandable" numerous times, I had actually forgotten "foreign language" can actually have this latter meaning, so it eluded myself completely that that was what you meant, and hence I did express my perplexity at your comment. Sorry. I should have thought about it longer before posting that reply, and perhaps it would have dawned on me what your comment was intended to mean. Then again, you failed to realize many of those replying to you, me included, are *not* native speakers of English, no matter whether we can express ourselves well in it or not, so that, in fact, for us at least, English actually *is* a foreign language... MSFN is actually a truly international forum that uses English as the common communication language!
[/off topic]

And, BTW, since I didn't say it before, welcome to MSFN!

#32
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Still off topic :w00t: .
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Greek_to_me

That's Greek to me or It's (all) Greek to me is an idiom/dead metaphor in English, expressing that something is not understandable.

BUT ;):
http://legalminds.lp...l/msg00203.html

>From John Phillip Mustachio of Houston, this excerpt from the trial
testimony of the plaintiff, whose first language is Greek.

Q. What I'm trying to do, Mr. Emmanonil, is to show that you have quite a
bit of experience in owning and operating real estate, do you not?
A. No. The only one experience I have is just to - to know how is the
valuable of the land is going to go up or down. That's I'm good only. But
legal phrase like this one, I'm zero. Like I say earlier, I have gift know
when is good piece of land or not. The rest of this stuff it's English to me.

:lol:

jaclaz

#33
bphlpt

bphlpt

    MSFN Addict

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,798 posts
  • Joined 12-May 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
And yet another "one last point" ...

@snoopy55, I don't know if jaclaz, or anyone, knew that 32bit XP would "allow" you to choose a non-valid drive for the paging file and then outright LIE to you about where it actually was, leading you to your mistaken impression that started this whole thread. I sure didn't know that. jaclaz was correct in post #9 when he stated that 'A "normal" MS NT based OS won't allow having a pagefile on an "external" disk, let alone a "removable" one.', then Ponch came the closest to your situation in post #13 when he actually tried what you had done and then said "all 4 volumes (2 on the HDD) appear in Virtual Memory settings, but ... there is no new file on that key". But yet no one came out and said that what is shown in the Virtual Memory settings control panel is not guaranteed to be accurate. I'm sure if anyone who responded to this thread knew that they would have said so and cleared things up long ago. So as it is, regardless of how argumentative the thread became, I believe we all owe you thanks for helping us all learn something. At least I do.

Cheers and Regards

Posted Image


#34
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

I don't know if jaclaz, or anyone, knew that 32bit XP would "allow" you to choose a non-valid drive for the paging file and then outright LIE to you about where it actually was, leading you to your mistaken impression that started this whole thread. I sure didn't know that.

Well, I can assure you that jaclaz did know about that (for XP 32 bit) AND posted a number of external sources in #18 to that effect, the actual behaviour might be slightly different depending on a number of factors, but the simple description in post #24 should be accurate enough.

But if you think a bit about it, set aside the foolish (and deceiving :ph34r: ) way that MS used to implement the Virtual Memory Control Panel and the mechanism, the "decision" to NOT put the pagefile.sys on an "external" device makes a lot of sense.

The pagefile.sys is "hooked" at boot time (and thus changes to it require a re-boot), what will happen if you have a pagefile.sys on a USB stick or HD and you decide "mid-session" to disconnect it?

You have to consider that while nowadays a pagefile, and much more than that a pagefile 1.5 to 2 times the size of RAM is rarely (please read as "almost never") used if not if there is an issue with the system, like an app going beserk and eating all the RAM, or if there is a crash and a dumpcheck is created, in times of machines with 256 or 512 Mb and possibly 1 Gb of memory it was very frequent that it got "hit".

As a matter of fact - and I don't want to start yet another "is pagefile needed/no it is not" or "it must be 1.5 or 2 tiimes the RAM/No, that makes no sense" usual flamewars - I have machines with "enough" memory that run OK since years without a pagefile set.

There are few things as "personal" as the choice on how exactly to set a pagefile :yes: :
http://www.msfn.org/...and-contiguous/

And it is often used by IT admins as one of those stories you tell kids around the fire or fireplace in a rainy winter evening ;) :
http://www.msfn.org/...it-environment/

Back to the topic of having a pagefile on something that you can remove "live", more or less on a low memory machine you would be telling to a booted system that it has available 256+512 Mb of memory and after it is "convinced" of this you can (by accident) hot-unplug 2/3 of memory..... :ph34r: as one of the given liks states kernels tend to like not this kind of tricks.

The actuall DiskMod filter driver was developed for a specific use, when you actually boot from USB and you may have two different kind of problems:
  • no pagefile.sys at all because the machine has no suitable "internal" disk
  • "polluting" an internal disk filesystem with a pagefile.sys automatically generated


jaclaz

#35
Ponch

Ponch

    MSFN Junkie

  • Patrons
  • 3,287 posts
  • Joined 23-November 05
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

then Ponch came the closest to your situation in post #13 when he actually tried what you had done and then said "all 4 volumes (2 on the HDD) appear in Virtual Memory settings, but ... there is no new file on that key". But yet no one came out and said that what is shown in the Virtual Memory settings control panel is not guaranteed to be accurate. I'm sure if anyone who responded to this thread knew that they would have said so

Thanks. It was more than implied in that post of mine (read full post). In fact, I still don't understand what else Snoopy55 was thinking to have achieved. To change that setting, you need to click on an "Advanced" tab twice. I'm still confused how advanced his knowledge of virtual memory is as the very first (if not the only) thing most people know about that setting is that it changes the place and size of the "Pagefile.sys", yet seing this was not the case, he was not impressed and still somehow suggesting something had changed somewhere in the ether and we had to prove him wrong.
A bit like
-How do I put a turbo on an electric motorbike?
-bad idea, won't work
-might sound crazy to you but I've done it on my electric car, now please help
-can't be done because electric motors don't have exhaust and that's what turbo needs. Could work on hybrid cars.
-your explanation is too complex, I checked for a hybrid bike but I can't find one.
-I see it can be fastened under the hood but won't have any effect, is there any indication that the car is more powerfull?
-no, but still I've done it, please prove that the car should be more powerfull if I place a turbo on the motor.
-... err...right. :wacko:

Surrealism ... aahh...Belgium.

#36
bphlpt

bphlpt

    MSFN Addict

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,798 posts
  • Joined 12-May 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Well, he admitted later (which we had no way of knowing) that his knowledge of virtual memory was practically nil, and also hadn't realized that in order 'To view the Pagefile.sys file along with checking "Show hidden files and folders" you must also uncheck "Hide protected operating system files (Recommended)"', (yes, MS didn't make it easy/obvious for the uninformed user to see, but it's a rather important file, so that's to be expected), so to give snoopy55 the benefit of the doubt, if I had been in his place I would probably have believed the Control Panel as well. He didn't see anything (but it's supposed to be virtual, right?), he didn't get any errors, everything "worked", performance was good, so with the knowledge he had about pagefiles/virtual memeory why shouldn't he have believed what the Control Panel told him?

No one gave snoopy55 incorrect information, but without having it all together at once, his experience of what he was seeing with his eyes contradicted what he was being told. As a person new to this aspect of Windows, I guess that snoopy55 would have loved to have had this as the first response to his original post:

A "normal" MS NT based OS won't allow having a pagefile on an "external" disk, let alone a "removable" one.

To allow this normally a filter driver is used, see here for DiskMod:
http://reboot.pro/9461/
http://reboot.pro/9461/#entry86619/
which comes also in a 64 bit version, though tested only on later systems (Vista and 7) AFAICR.


So,

What I find very strange (besides what you want to achieve) is what you report. :w00t:


You should look to see where the Pagefile.sys actually is. ['To view the Pagefile.sys file along with checking "Show hidden files and folders" you must also uncheck "Hide protected operating system files (Recommended)"'] Be aware that there is a bug in 32bit XP such that:

32bit XP would "allow" you to choose a non-valid drive for the paging file and then outright LIE to you about where it actually was, leading you to your mistaken impression

AFAIK, in order for a location to be used as virtual memory/pagefile, a Pagefile.sys file must exist there regardless if the pagefile is actively being used at that time or not.

But if you think a bit about it, set aside the foolish (and deceiving :ph34r: ) way that MS used to implement the Virtual Memory Control Panel and the mechanism, the "decision" to NOT put the pagefile.sys on an "external" device makes a lot of sense.

The pagefile.sys is "hooked" at boot time (and thus changes to it require a re-boot), what will happen if you have a pagefile.sys on a USB stick or HD and you decide "mid-session" to disconnect it?


Please confirm where any Pagefile.sys files are located anywhere on your system and get back to us if you still have any questions.


At which point snoopy55 would have probably said "Ohhh. Thank you very much, my mistake. LOL :)" and gone on his way and this would have been a three post thread. But without all the ruckus that was raised, I, for one, would have most likely skipped over this thread and it would not have made the impression on me that it has in its present form. So I still say "Thank You" to snoopy55 for having raised the issue, even though I'm very sorry that the discussion got so heated and that anyone's feelings were hurt.

EDIT: By the way, I noticed in snoopy55's pics that he had set the minimum/maximum settings for his Kingston pagefile slightly differently, ie 1023/1024 MB. I believe that the accepted practice, if you are not going to have them set automatically, is to set them to the same value, ie 1024/1024MB. But I could be wrong.

Cheers and Regards

Edited by bphlpt, 15 November 2012 - 05:03 PM.

Posted Image


#37
dencorso

dencorso

    Iuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Supervisor
  • 5,946 posts
  • Joined 07-April 07
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

By the way, I noticed in snoopy55's pics that he had set the minimum/maximum settings for his Kingston pagefile slightly differently, ie 1023/1024 MB. I believe that the accepted practice, if you are not going to have them set automatically, is to set them to the same value, ie 1024/1024MB.

Many do that, yes... then again, here I fully agree with jaclaz:

There are few things as "personal" as the choice on how exactly to set a pagefile :yes: :
http://www.msfn.org/...and-contiguous/



#38
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
@dencorso
In this specific case I disagree :whistle: .
The setting for a pagefile (not system managed) has to be chosen between:
  • fixed size (like 1024-1024) <-Smart IMHO
  • "dynamic" (like 1024-2048)<-Senselsss IMHO

The third option "dynamic with no slack" (like 1023-1024) is one that makes even less sense.

The idea with "fixed size" is that when the pagefile is hit AND it's fixed size is filled, the system will nicely crash.

The idea with "dynamic" is that once pagefile.sys is "hit", AND it is filled for it's minimum size, it starts expanding until it reaches the maximim size, THEN the system will crash nicely of course IF there is enough available space for the pagefile to "grow".

The foolishness of the "dynamic" is that it takes time (and system resources) to resize the pagefile, so, in a situation where the system is on the verge of crashing you add some stress to it.
That, in determinate conditions (and with the big caveat of available space) may make some (little) sense if the "expansion range" is "big".
With 1 Mb difference it makes not any.

BTW, on low memory systems, it makes sense to make a dynamic pagefile, say, something like 100-2048 in order to test the system (intentionally loading it to the max/overloading it) to find a more accurate value for the max range used, lets'say 1536, and then set it fixed to 1536-1536.

Additionally a "dynamic" pagefile, if "hit", will contrubute to fragmentation, and for any "diagnostic" use of the pagefile.sys as "dump" it is much more convenient to have it in "one piece" as only the "fixed" setting may guarantee.

With today's hard disk sizes, it makes no sense however to "spare" a few Mbytes of hard disk space anyway.

@bhplt
  • someone else - in perfect good faith - provided 5 partial or unrelated answers to the original question.
  • OP - remarked this in a somewhat "I know more than you do" approach, and reiterating the question as "So again, we are right back to the question, is there a way to get XP x64 to be able to use a USB as VM?"
  • I initially answered to that question (and nothing else), and I did it VERY accurately, it was NOT my intention to make a course on vityual memory or pagefile.sys and from the approach of the OP, my intention was to post EXACTLY what I posted, and I also explained the reasons why I did post EXACTLY that and not nothing else in post #30 and also some "what if"
  • I want to re-affirm the fact that I am NOT binded by any contract or agreement to spoon feed anyone, particularly when I feel like not doing it, nor that I need to "make friends" with anyone, hence I feel free to post whatever I like to, in the EXACT way I like to, within the limits of Board Rules, of course.

Of course you are perfectly free to tell me what I should have posted and how I should have worded it, but I find it a perfect example of exercise in futility.

Let's use a carpenter's comparison :w00t: :
a fictional_customer goes to the hardware store and:
[quote name='fictional_customer']I want to to fix a steel plate with some nails on a reinforced concrete wall, I used to do that with common iron nails and a hammer, but somehow I cannot manage to do it anymore in my new house, how do I do it?[/quote]
[quote name='fictional_hardware_store_manager']
I don't think it is a good idea to plant nails wiith a hammer in a reinforced concrete wall, expecially to fix to it a steel plate, and I doubt you ever managed to do that.
Normally you cannot plant common nails in a reinforced concrete wall with a hammer.
What is normally used for concrete walls are wall plugs/screw anchors/dowels, and you need a drill to install them, here is the only one I have available....
[/quote]
[quote name='fictional_other_customer_at_the_counter_say_Ponch']
Have you checked it is well fixed?
I tried doing the same, but it seemed not stable.
[/quote]
(fictional_customer' walks away, coming back the day after with some photographs of a steel plate with a hook welded to it nailed to a wall)
[quote name='fictional_customer']You see, I have been doing DIY jobs all my life, and I used to work as carpenter, painter and truck driver.
Here is the steel plate I fixed to the wall on my old house, as you can see it is fixed with nails, and I can guarantee that I planted them with a hammer[/quote]
[quote name='fictional_hardware_store_manager']
Good :), have you tried to put some load on the hook? (just to make sure it is fixed in a solid way, can you try hanging to it, let's say, some 100 pounds)
[/quote]
(fictional_customer' walks away, coming back the day after)
[quote name='fictional_customer']
I found an interesting fact.
I tried putting some weight to the hook.
I had to use a rope to hang the load to the hook (you didnt mention using a rope at all).
The hook and steel plate came off the wall
[/quote]
[quote name='fictional_hardware_store_manager']
Yes, this is normal, that's why I told you to use some anchors, what happens is that when you plant the nails they seem to be steady but they cannot hold on concrete enough to carry an actual weight.
[/quote]
[quote name='fictional_customer']
You could have explained that better and from the start.
[/quote]
[quote name='fictional_hardware_store_manager']
Yes, I could have, but I didn't, since you seemed - and actually presented yourself as - an expert.
[/quote]
[quote name='fictional_bhplt_passing_by']
That hardware store manager is queer, he could have explained better how nails are not the right choice to fix steel plates on walls if the hook on the plate is to be loaded. I didn't knew that, but he could well have explained since day one, if he had been more explicit, than the customer would have bought the drill and anchors the first day.
[/quote]

And, still just for the record:
[quote name='jaclaz' timestamp='1352752890' post='1018182']
Can you open that "USB card" in explorer and see if there is in its root (possibly hidden/system) a file named "pagefile.sys"?
[/quote]
[quote name='snoopy55' timestamp='1352773039' post='1018209']
To view the Pagefile.sys file along with checking "Show hidden files and folders" you must also uncheck "Hide protected operating system files (Recommended)" (you might have clarified this little much needed step Jaclaz )
[/quote]


jaclaz

#39
bphlpt

bphlpt

    MSFN Addict

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,798 posts
  • Joined 12-May 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
LOL Don't worry jaclaz, I was not aiming any criticism whatsoever at you. You notice I did not say "What someone should have told the OP from the beginning is ...", but rather "snoopy55 would have loved to have had this as the first response". I know that others gave partial or unrelated responses, I just said "No one gave snoopy55 incorrect information". I very fully realize that you and every other member of this board who try to answer questions posed on this board do so freely, voluntarily, out of the goodness of your heart, to the best of your ability, and with all good intentions. I recognize that the teaching method of giving enough information and hints for the student to discover the answer for himself, along with the why and how it works, is the best method for the student to truly learn not only the answer, but how to apply it to other problems. Your and Ponch's fictional examples also compare well to what happened in this thread. (Except that I know that you can't use nails to hold a steel plate on concrete walls :) ) I summarized the most important aspects of the thread for my own convenience if for no one else's. I guess it came off sounding like "we should remember not everyone knows the 'obvious' things we know", which, while that is good to remember, is not the only lesson in this thread. Another very important point is that the student should remember that if they are having a problem, it is just as likely they are doing something wrong as it is that they don't know what to do. If they are doing something wrong, then what they think they know or believe, or what they have done in the past, might not be correct either. When the teacher asks "Why do you believe _____?" or "Why do you want to do that?" or "You usually are not able to do that." there are usually very good reasons that they say that. All the best teachers I have seen ask questions to both draw out information so they can tell what the real problem is, and to make the student think and analyze the problem for themselves. In the end, that is what happened here and snoopy55 finally discovered his mistake. Could someone have laid all the information out for him in the first response? Yes. Could he have supplied more information himself at the beginning? Yes. Could he have accepted our response without question? Yes, but as you said, there was some partial and unrelated info given. It is also, I believe, human nature when given a response or instructions that fly in the face of what you are seeing with your own eyes to question or not believe the response. Until, that is, you learn you have been looking in the wrong place. :) Anyway, in the end the OP got his answer and learned something, so all is well.

Cheers and Regards

Posted Image


#40
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
It is not about "teacher" and "student" (that implies a different level of knowledge AND someone who is paid to teach while the other one pays and has - in theory - all the interest in listening).

It is about exchanging knowledge on technical issues, or solve a problem, there is no teacher nor pupil, and this is not a class, there is a question, and (if there is a known answer about that question) someone that hopefully provides the answer.

If the answer is not understood, further questions in order to clarify the obscure parts may well be asked, and actually common politeness requires to ask these questions (that will also hopefully be answered) before putting aside the answer as nonsense.
EXAMPLE:

How do I frimble the grontish wibble?

You cannot frimble the wibble, grontishly or not, without first trepling at least two stroppbaums.
See here:
wwwwwwwwww

I used to be able to frimble the wibble without any previoous procedure, but I beg your pardon, I am not familiar with stroppbaums, nor with trepling at all, can you explain what you meant? :unsure:

Sure, no prob :).
First thing you need to procure yourself a trepler, there is one availble here: xxxxxxxx, and another here: yyyyyyyyy.
Then you should read here: zzzzzzzzzzzz about the generic trepling procedure.
Once you will have grasped the general concept, will talk in detail about stroppbaums.

OK, I read the given resources, but I cannot understand what a frottle is and how to use it in this context.

A frottle is easy to understand, imagine a squeshter, but more froody, you simply braffle it over the trepler before applying it to the stroppbaums.

Ahh, now I see, so you actually mean that I absolutely need to use the frottle to treple a stroppbaum?
And that stroppbaums, properly trepled, are needed in any case?
Really didn't know that, thanks.



I do perfectly understand the attitude of the OP, which is a very common one, so common that long before this thread was started it was "coded" in the linked to "common sense advice" (a remarkably UNcommon quality of people) in the already given link:
http://reboot.pro/82/
and it exists since the dawn of internet, in the X/Y/Z issue:
http://homepage.ntlw...red-banana.html
particularly, but more generally in the "How to ask questions the smart way":
http://catb.org./~es...-questions.html

jaclaz

#41
Ponch

Ponch

    MSFN Junkie

  • Patrons
  • 3,287 posts
  • Joined 23-November 05
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Let it go. From the 1st post, there was no way we could have guessed he was missing the very basic knowledge about what he was requesting help with (advanced settings, hidden system files, etc). I guess everybody lost a bit of time but it was good fun at the end. I'm done with this. Peace.

#42
bphlpt

bphlpt

    MSFN Addict

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,798 posts
  • Joined 12-May 07
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag
Where was this - http://reboot.pro/82/ - supposed to go?

Sorry, we couldn't find that!


Cheers and Regards

Posted Image


#43
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Where was this - http://reboot.pro/82/ - supposed to go?

Sorry, we couldn't find that!


Cheers and Regards


My bad :blushing: , (though not really my bad :w00t:, it did take where it should have taken when I posted it) try:
http://reboot.pro/to...ly-names-again/
and thus:
http://reboot.pro/in...hp?showtopic=82

Just in case it disappears, eaten by a white whale or whatever, here it is verbatim the relevant part:

Following are not rules, but "common sense" advice:

a. Please do use the Search function before posting a question that has already been asked and (hopefully) answered to. This is another reason for rule #10 above, searching meaningful titled posts is easier and faster.

b. Please avoid to put pressure on other members, I have seen on other boards members posting a question and no later than 2 hours later make another post like "anyone?" or "PLEASE, I really need this URGENTLY!". As said, scope of the board is the exchange of informations on boot related technicalities and software, all members have their own work and come here to relax, learn something new, help others and discuss these topics, if you need something really "URGENT" consider hiring a professional consultant (and be prepared to pay him/her). If your request has not been acknowledged by anyone after a "reasonable" time, that in this case means a few days, you are on the contrary invited to "bump" it, as it may happen that a particular post has been overlooked.

c. Please be prepared to spend some time reading and understanding answers and related links, another common type of poster is one that wants something not only "now", but also only as a "few clicks away" solution, and, possibly "exactly" the way he wants it to be, even if it is technically impossible.

d. Please when asking something, be the more specific you can, even without being verbose you can pass along all the needed information, typical examples:


I am running Windows....

Which one? Just from memory I recall 3 or 4 versions of Windows 3.x, 4 or 5 of Windows 95, 2 of Windows 98, then Millennium Edition, NT 3.51 and 4.00 Workstaion and Server, Windows 2000 various versions, XP Home and Professional and of course Windows Server 2003...


I have an error, it printed a number on a blue screen, the text said something like "You cannot boot from this thingy" or something like that....

When reporting an error, the exact number and text is useful to understand what the problem might be, quite obviously, knowing that it is a STOP: 0x0000007B INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE instead of "something like that" will really help ...


Ok, so I read a tutorial on the Internet and it does not work for me...

Which one, there are thousands of tutorials or articles on the Internet, how are we supposed to know which one you are referring to....


Ok, so I read the tutorial on site www.somesite.ext and it does not work for me, I followed it exactly except for two or three intermediate steps, ...

No comment ....

e. Please, if you succeed in whatever you asked help for, do report this and the exact steps you took, it is a form of thanking the member(s) which helped you and to help other people that have the same problem you had.

Note:
The above rules have been almost entirely copied from the ones on MSFN forums, as I find them simple and rightful, but most other technical boards use similar ones.

Amendment #1 to Rules June 17, 2007 - adding of point f.
Special, more explicit, "common sense" advice, SUPPLEMENTAL to that already present in points a-b-c-d-e above.

Mind you that this advice is given to HELP you solving a problem, and though not compulsory, it will help you more than you might expect in troubleshooting and (hopefully) solve your problem faster.

f. Always think why you are here asking for help:


It is because you are not able to solve that problem by yourself.

Always think why other members might be able to try and help you:


Because they are good guys/gals and know more than you do.

The above implies that AFTER you have done your best to comply with points a-b-c-d of the rules, if any member trying to help you asks you supplemental informations and details, to run one or more programs or to do a determinate series of actions and to post results, it is because there are REASONS for this procedure. (you remember, you weren't able to solve this problem by yourself and they know more than you do.)
So, it would be VERY APPRECIATED, and, as said, it will better the quality of the assistance you might receive if you would:
f1.- Post JUST the problem you are having, with needed details, but WITHOUT suggesting what the solution is according to you.
f2.- Temporarily "disconnect" your mind from your idea of WHAT has caused or is causing the problem you have, and of HOW the fix should be made, solving a problem means finding it's SOLUTION, the method through which the latter is found is not relevant and viewing it from just one side can even prevent from finding the solution.
f3.- DO AS YOU ARE TOLD, do not introduce variations of ANY KIND in the given instructions, there are REASONS why they are suggested, and REASONS why they are suggested in the given order and yet more REASONS why other procedures are NOT suggested
f4.- DO NOT think you are smarter than the member who is trying to help you, even if generally speaking this might happen, it DOES NOT apply on the specific topic, nothing can upset more a willing helping member that someone that asks for advice and later does not try the given suggestions and/or does another thing. On the contrary, once the suggested steps have been tried and gave no result, your ideas are welcome, in other words we try to troubleshoot in a "logical" way, as in the famous Sherlock Holmes saying "when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth", but we like beforehand to exclude the possible, the common, the probable, and this approach solves problems in a MUCH faster way in a large amount of cases.
f5.- BE PREPARED to spend some time interactively searching and (hopefully) finding a solution, remember it is you that are having the problem, the only reason why another member tries to help you is to share and expand his knowledge, and to be gratified by an even small thank you when the solution is found. There are a number of members that, as soon as they see that there is no pre-made one-size-fits-all solution one or a few clicks away, simply disappear from the board, leaving behind an unresolved problem and, possibly, a disappointed member who tried vainly to help.


jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 16 November 2012 - 11:09 AM.


#44
dencorso

dencorso

    Iuvat plus qui nihil obstat

  • Supervisor
  • 5,946 posts
  • Joined 07-April 07
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Donator

@jaclaz: With all due respect, it's too bad I didn't have anyone to bet with at the time, because if I had, I'd have bet you would reply precisely:

@dencorso:
[...] I disagree :whistle: .

... I saw that coming the moment I hit "Add Reply" to send my message that said:

[...] I fully agree with jaclaz:

Thanks for showing my crystall ball is working OK, right now, after so long! :P

Posted Image



#45
jaclaz

jaclaz

    The Finder

  • Developer
  • 14,569 posts
  • Joined 23-July 04
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Thanks for showing my crystall ball is working OK, right now, after so long! :P

Posted Image


Did you manage to find someone actually capable of tuning it? :w00t:
I guess you aren't going to share the address of that shop, are you?

My crystal ball is very sensible to changes in weather, and noone seems like being able to tune it properly....

But still it was clear enough to allow me to write :angel :

In the specific case ...

so that I could distiguish this specific disagreement with the more general "all round" one ;) (that I suspect is the one your crystall ball - after all not perfectly tuned - showed you :whistle: )

:lol:

jaclaz




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users