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Why you should avoid buying Windows 8


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#26
Chrysalis

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Windows 8 is a developers dream I think.

I'll make a wild guess and say you aren't one. Because it's the *complete* opposite as far as I'm concerned. To me, Win8 is the beginning of the end. By itself, it's a good enough reason to abandon C# and the .NET framework for something that can also run on other OS'es which are still usable on a desktop (keeping support for Win7 obviously), and if mobile is attractive at all, even port easily to devices that actually sell i.e. Android or iOS based. With MS making the desktop a 2nd class citizen, and making WinRT incompatible with 100% of what we're using (all desktop and x86 apps) and making that laughable "replacement" model (Metro garbage, or whatever it's called this week) only work on Win8, it's a good reason to never bother with it. Doubly so when MS deprecates and abandons its newer development technologies so fast. I see zero interest in all other devs I know to make Metro apps either (in part because none of them want to be stuck using it on their desktop). And with MS making Win8 such a terrible OS on a desktop, I don't those sales exactly increasing either, which is just yet another reason to consider developing for iOS and Android instead.

TL;DR: Win8 is a developer's nightmare.


I hope you are right and I agree that they abandoning newer technologies ridicously fast as well.

Unfortenatly windows 8 is having decent sales figures at the moment and sites like this I see various tech heads running windows 8 already on their desktops. Already also dev's making apps for windows 8 and going to profit from it as well, stardock with their start menu app and start is back.


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#27
jaclaz

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Already also dev's making apps for windows 8 and going to profit from it as well, stardock with their start menu app and start is back.


Mr. Ford selling his model T without steering wheel :w00t: in order to have third party steering wheel makers rich? :unsure:

As a matter of fact somthing like this happened :yes: , but not because there was NOT a perfectly working steering wheel supplied with the car, but because some users were too fat to get into the car:
http://www.modeltfor...tem/3503TW.aspx

The dumbified version of Windows interface will undoubtedly make a market for undumbifiers, but you are seemingly missing the point about the actual differences between Windows 8 (and it's "normal" underlying working, exception made for the N.C.I.) and the Windows RT that has a completely different "codebase" underneath (while it has the same N.C.I. on top).

jaclaz

#28
CoffeeFiend

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Unfortenatly windows 8 is having decent sales figures at the moment

If it really was (I don't see anyone who even plans on buying it anytime soon), we'd hear a lot more about it.

and sites like this I see various tech heads running windows 8 already on their desktops

Tech heads are like less than 1% of the population, and they tend to mostly stay current to be able to support it. They're also the group (which is where the fanboys are) that ran Vista even though it's pretty much synonym with "catastrophic failure" to 99%+ of the population. That means very little. And when you look at surveys that were done previously on Win8-heavy sites, the vast majority of the users claimed to prefer another OS.

Already also dev's making apps for windows 8

I see none of that happening anywhere right now, save for a few exceptions, mostly being popular angry birds-style games (which will do well on any platform)

going to profit from it as well

That's a big and fairly common misconception. App stores are filled with garbage, and it's typically hard to find the real gems (less money to make in a crowded market), besides the popular apps. Those popular apps (like angry birds) are just about the only ones making money, some say that the top 20% (which unfortunately will be somebody else) makes 97% of the money, other says that the bottom 80% (most people) shares 3% of the profit, others remind us that the vast majority fail hard, and there's almost no money being made on the Android store comparatively (Apple's app store made 6x as much last year). TL;DR: Angry birds-type of popular games will make money, others... not so much!

And here we're talking about money being made from extremely popular devices (iOS and Android), not WinRT which will likely fail as hard as the Zune, or Metro apps on Win8 which most users seem to avoid like the plague... Nobody wants to develop for a userbase approaching zero.

stardock with their start menu app and start is back.

Start menu replacements will likely be the most common app to run on Win8, yes. jaclaz's steering wheel analogy says it better than I could.

#29
JorgeA

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App stores are filled with garbage, and it's typically hard to find the real gems (less money to make in a crowded market), besides the popular apps. Those popular apps (like angry birds) are just about the only ones making money, some say that the top 20% (which unfortunately will be somebody else) makes 97% of the money, other says that the bottom 80% (most people) shares 3% of the profit, others remind us that the vast majority fail hard, and there's almost no money being made on the Android store comparatively (Apple's app store made 6x as much last year). TL;DR: Angry birds-type of popular games will make money, others... not so much!

I have to say, that's one impressive compilation you've put together there. It reminds me of the saying that expertise lies not necessarily so much in knowing information, as in knowing where to look for it. Wow.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 09 November 2012 - 07:11 AM.


#30
CoffeeFiend

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I have to say, that's one impressive compilation you've put together there.

Thanks! :blushing:

The point was we now know that the "app bubble" won't make you rich unless you're very lucky. Developers know this. There's just not much of a reason to bother IMO. Doubly so when it's an app store for a platform with almost no users. I mean, iOS is on over 400M devices and Android on over 500M, with 1.3M new devices activated everyday. We know that Win8 has sold a measly 4M licenses, but we have no idea how many of those are sitting on shelves of stores or warehouses (MS is well known for counting many things like that in their Vista sales to inflate the numbers), we have no idea how many of those were sold to MS (just like they did to inflate their Surface sales, by counting their purchases of their own product for their own employees), how many bought it because it was a $15 downgrade and quickly realized that it wasn't worth that and promptly reinstalled Win7, how many are using it on a desktop while avoiding metro like the plague (those people won't be buying metro apps either) and so on.

TL;DR: Why develop a Win8-only Metro app, when Win8 has almost no users and that Metro apps are avoided by Win8 users, and when you're unlikely to make money even when there are hundreds of millions of users?

And since we're talking about deceptive, misleading and creative ways to measure Vista sales... We can only assume they're doing the same with Win8. But when you look at numbers that reflect reality... Like the market share of each OS which are hitting large amounts of websites, you quickly realize that Windows 7 beat it in early adoption rate five to one. And still, that's disregarding that 75% of Win8 users actually prefer to use another OS in the first place (twice as much preferring Win7 over it). It's not looking good by any stretch of the imagination.

Meanwhile, WinRT is getting some pretty mixed reviews (how surprising!), its main advantage (MS Office) can't actually be used in businesses and doesn't include Outlook (not that most people care for an office suite on a tablet), half the space so far is taken by the OS (13GB used on a 32GB tablet) and updates will only make that worse, and since we're talking about updates, WinRT isn't exactly the impenetrable fort knox of security (oh, did you think you were buying a secure and hassle-free device?), and two weeks after Surface is out MS is already acknowledging hardware problems (I totally didn't expect that in a first generation MS device! RROD, anyone?) People also recently discovered that the sucktastic built-in Metro apps have ads (in a product you paid for!), but that shouldn't be surprising since they've done the same to the Xbox dashboard recently (who cares if you bought the console, the games, and are paying for Live! too? You're *still* getting ads!)

Win8 is one huge bag of fail.

#31
jaclaz

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Well the good news:
http://www.zdnet.com...lem-7000007189/
are that they are aknowledging the:

Microsoft acknowledged the issue in a statement sent to ZDNet on Friday.

"Microsoft makes every effort to ensure our customers receive a high quality product. We are in active contact with our Customer Support operations and are aware of a small number of instances of material separation," the spokeswoman said.


the road to actually admit the "mental separation" from user base and reality is still long though...;)

jaclaz

#32
JorgeA

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Meanwhile, WinRT is getting some pretty mixed reviews (how surprising!), its main advantage (MS Office) can't actually be used in businesses and doesn't include Outlook (not that most people care for an office suite on a tablet), half the space so far is taken by the OS (13GB used on a 32GB tablet) and updates will only make that worse, and since we're talking about updates, WinRT isn't exactly the impenetrable fort knox of security (oh, did you think you were buying a secure and hassle-free device?), and two weeks after Surface is out MS is already acknowledging hardware problems (I totally didn't expect that in a first generation MS device! RROD, anyone?) People also recently discovered that the sucktastic built-in Metro apps have ads (in a product you paid for!), but that shouldn't be surprising since they've done the same to the Xbox dashboard recently (who cares if you bought the console, the games, and are paying for Live! too? You're *still* getting ads!)

I noticed in ZDNet's Win8 security flaws post, that

Among the flaws, a few patches will be delivered for Internet Explorer that will fix a flaw that allows drive-by attacks on vulnerable systems, such as if the user visits a malicious Web page through the browser. Older versions of Internet Explorer, versions IE6, IE7 and IE8, which run on Windows XP, will not be patched.

Of course this continues the campaign to get people off XP, but the way the post is written, it's not entirely clear whether the lack of a fix for IE8 will also apply to non-XP users. For example, me on Vista and IE8.

Digging further, a check of the security bulletin indicates that the fix will not be offered for IE8.

This s*cks. IE8 was the last browser version with a fully functional (informative) status bar, which sadly not even the Classic Shell folks have been able to restore completely. Not that Firefox is any better in that regard -- I kept version 3.6 until Norton stopped supporting it. The mind-boggling trend is toward giving the user LESS information.

--JorgeA

#33
Aaaaa

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Reason not to buy Windows 8: because paying money for it or even using it (increase market share) rewards Microsoft's stupid decisions
I'll even go out of my way to not only make sure people I know don't buy windows 8, and if they get a laptop that comes with it, get a refund from Microsoft.

Sure, there are some nice things about Windows 8. But Microsoft needs to stop this nonsense. And it seems money is the only thing that will convince them at this point.

#34
JorgeA

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Reason not to buy Windows 8: because paying money for it or even using it (increase market share) rewards Microsoft's stupid decisions
I'll even go out of my way to not only make sure people I know don't buy windows 8, and if they get a laptop that comes with it, get a refund from Microsoft.

Sure, there are some nice things about Windows 8. But Microsoft needs to stop this nonsense. And it seems money is the only thing that will convince them at this point.

I'm with you on every count. Sales (or the lack thereof) are the ultimate judge and determinant.

I am tempted to walk into a computer store, stand in front of the Windows 8 screens, and get big eyes of (mock) wonder and really loudly say something like, "Wow, I feel like I'm in kindergarten again!!"

--JorgeA

#35
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Try Linux Mint 13 MATE, has classic start button & customizable taskbar. My current uptime is 26 days and no more Windows BSODs.

#36
Laurence

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I thought the author in the following article provided an interesting perspective:

Windows 8 Disappointing Usability for Both Novice and Power Users

regards,
Laurence

#37
jaclaz

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I thought the author in the following article provided an interesting perspective:

Windows 8 Disappointing Usability for Both Novice and Power Users

regards,
Laurence

Yep :thumbup
Also commented starting here:
http://www.msfn.org/...ost__p__1019066

jaclaz

#38
Laurence

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Yep :thumbup
Also commented starting here:
http://www.msfn.org/...ost__p__1019066

jaclaz


Indeed; and I find it interesting there as well. :blink:

regards,
Laurence

#39
Tripredacus

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Try Linux Mint 13 MATE, has classic start button & customizable taskbar. My current uptime is 26 days and no more Windows BSODs.


Just so you know, using uptime as some sort of feature of Linux is an invalid argument. :rolleyes:

#40
jaclaz

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Try Linux Mint 13 MATE, has classic start button & customizable taskbar. My current uptime is 26 days and no more Windows BSODs.


Just so you know, using uptime as some sort of feature of Linux is an invalid argument. :rolleyes:

NOT really :unsure: .
The point is the actual AMOUNT of uptime.
I have some NT 4.00 and 2K running 24/7 since 2002 or 2003 only switched off/rebooted a few times to replace disks and/or PSU's, that is some "uptime", not 26 days, uptime starts to be of *some* relevance when you start counting it in years.... :whistle: and of course a lot of things depend on the actual usage the machine has.


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#41
JorgeA

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The point is the actual AMOUNT of uptime.
I have some NT 4.00 and 2K running 24/7 since 2002 or 2003 only switched off/rebooted a few times to replace disks and/or PSU's, that is some "uptime", not 26 days, uptime starts to be of *some* relevance when you start counting it in years.... :whistle: and of course a lot of things depend on the actual usage the machine has.

I think that Phenomic was making the point that his Linux system is less crash-prone than Windows is perceived to be. Why, I have a brand-new Windows 7 machine, and got my first BSOD one day into owning it when I tried to install the graphics card driver offered by Windows Update.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA, 20 November 2012 - 11:57 AM.


#42
JorgeA

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I thought the author in the following article provided an interesting perspective:

Windows 8 Disappointing Usability for Both Novice and Power Users

I went on their website and that article is only the latest in a whole slew of fascinating stuff!

--JorgeA

#43
JorgeA

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Try Linux Mint 13 MATE, has classic start button & customizable taskbar. My current uptime is 26 days and no more Windows BSODs.

I've said that if Microsoft doesn't make it so that I can avoid their Metro thing altogether, then when Windows 7 support runs out my screen will start looking like this.

--JorgeA

#44
jaclaz

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Why, I have a brand-new Windows 7 machine, and got my first BSOD one day into owning it when I tried to install the graphics card driver offered by Windows Update.

And I have seen Linux distro's that won't even boot the first time, what gives? :unsure:

Of course having Windows Update running automatically is a threat :blink: to a system's stability, you are allowing a third party (qualified as it might be :whistle: ) to install *something* (normally completely UNlike *needed*) to your otherwise nicely running system, in most cases this works, sometimes it doesn't, this is "normal" and "expected" (and I suspect - though most probably "innocent" in this particular case - that you are also running some Symantec app on that system :w00t: ).
Since you weren't around at the time, check what happened with XP SP3 :ph34r: :
http://www.msfn.org/...ndaid-solution/


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#45
JorgeA

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And I have seen Linux distro's that won't even boot the first time, what gives? :unsure:

That's why I also wrote (but it wasn't in the excerpt that you cited),

I think that Phenomic was making the point that his Linux system is less crash-prone than Windows is perceived to be.

[emphasis added]

Actually, the more I work with Linux the less "better" it looks to me. I reinstalled Zorin OS 5.2 from the DVD the other day and went to update it, and there was very little to update. Apparently because it's Narwhal, it's no longer supported and the update site doesn't work anymore. This means that I would have to move over to Zorin 6. And then when support for that edition of Ubuntu (on which Zorin is based) runs out, I'll have to nuke everything and install a whole new edition of the OS because improvements and patches cease and the site closes within a couple of years?? Sheez, talk about the Microsoft "upgrade treadmill." Eleven years later and you can still install XP from scratch and make it current. So, unless Windows 8.1 or 9 allows me to disable Metro, when Win7 reaches end-of-life then I'll have a difficult choice to make. Which may still be Linux.

BTW, I didn't set those Windows updates (including the graphics card driver) to install automatically, only to notify me so that then I could pick and choose. So in that sense I am even more guilty, but at least I can't be accused of "automatically" accepting whatever they send downstream. ;)

--JorgeA

#46
Tripredacus

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The point is the actual AMOUNT of uptime.
I have some NT 4.00 and 2K running 24/7 since 2002 or 2003 only switched off/rebooted a few times to replace disks and/or PSU's, that is some "uptime", not 26 days, uptime starts to be of *some* relevance when you start counting it in years.... :whistle: and of course a lot of things depend on the actual usage the machine has.

I think that Phenomic was making the point that his Linux system is less crash-prone than Windows is perceived to be. Why, I have a brand-new Windows 7 machine, and got my first BSOD one day into owning it when I tried to install the graphics card driver offered by Windows Update.

--JorgeA


Ha that's what you get! Device drivers from Windows Update. :no:

The reliability of a computer is solely dependent on how it is used. I've always wondered why people use the uptime as some sort of no-contest value in the OS debate. In the end, no OS is better than another in a general use standpoint so there is no reason to even have a debate. I see someone say Linux has uptime of 26 days, but this means nothing to me. I ran a Shoutcast/Quake 3 "server" on a Windows 98 PC that had uptimes of about 3 months before reboots that were needed. And even the workstation I am using right this second (Windows 7) has a current uptime of 1035:14:42 or 43 days. :P

#47
Phenomic

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The point is the actual AMOUNT of uptime.
I have some NT 4.00 and 2K running 24/7 since 2002 or 2003 only switched off/rebooted a few times to replace disks and/or PSU's, that is some "uptime", not 26 days, uptime starts to be of *some* relevance when you start counting it in years.... :whistle: and of course a lot of things depend on the actual usage the machine has.

I think that Phenomic was making the point that his Linux system is less crash-prone than Windows is perceived to be. Why, I have a brand-new Windows 7 machine, and got my first BSOD one day into owning it when I tried to install the graphics card driver offered by Windows Update.

--JorgeA


Thank you, yes that's what I meant, my new Mint OS has not BSODed or required a reboot during the first month. And for whatever Windows apps I need I'm running a Windows virtual machine as a guest OS with VirtualBox. With 16 GB memory you can easily run 4-5 OSes simultaneously.

#48
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Try Linux Mint 13 MATE, has classic start button & customizable taskbar. My current uptime is 26 days and no more Windows BSODs.

I've said that if Microsoft doesn't make it so that I can avoid their Metro thing altogether, then when Windows 7 support runs out my screen will start looking like this.

--JorgeA


What distro is that? Mint MATE 14 was just released, has latest kernel to support Intel z77 platform. Here's my old Ubuntu, with only 8 GB memory, can run simultaneously Windows 2000, Windows 7 and Windows 8 Developer Preview.
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#49
jaclaz

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Thank you, yes that's what I meant, my new Mint OS has not BSODed or required a reboot during the first month.

And we all got what you meant :thumbup , the only difference being the stance on this objective piece of info:
  • Tripredacus thinks that measuring uptime and using it to make a point, *any* point about "good" or "bad" OS is meaningless metrics
  • jaclaz thinks that while it is generally speaking meaningless metrics, the actual amount of uptime used in the given example is so trifling small that even IF uptime actually had some meanings, 26 days of it mean nothing anyway
  • jorgeA thinks that uptime is meaningful and - in order to prove it - compares the meanigless 26 days of your Linux with his meaningless 1 day uptime experience with 7

BTW, anyone with enough hardware power can run multiple Operating Systems in multiple Virtual Machines, if you want something more "real" (in order to make a comparison) get CoLinux ;):
http://www.colinux.org/

jaclaz

#50
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Thank you, yes that's what I meant, my new Mint OS has not BSODed or required a reboot during the first month.

And we all got what you meant :thumbup , the only difference being the stance on this objective piece of info:
  • Tripredacus thinks that measuring uptime and using it to make a point, *any* point about "good" or "bad" OS is meaningless metrics
  • jaclaz thinks that while it is generally speaking meaningless metrics, the actual amount of uptime used in the given example is so trifling small that even IF uptime actually had some meanings, 26 days of it mean nothing anyway
  • jorgeA thinks that uptime is meaningful and - in order to prove it - compares the meanigless 26 days of your Linux with his meaningless 1 day uptime experience with 7

BTW, anyone with enough hardware power can run multiple Operating Systems in multiple Virtual Machines, if you want something more "real" (in order to make a comparison) get CoLinux ;):
http://www.colinux.org/

jaclaz


My best uptime is Windows 2000, it runs for months and only goes down when there is a power outage.

I only mentioned uptime because when I installed Windows 7 on the same hardware it BSODed regularly coming out of suspend S3. More importantly VirtualBox was crashing and W7 put in "compatibility mode". So I deleted W7 and installed Mint 13, which has never crashed so far, and VirtualBox runs better under Linux than it does in Windows (probably by design).

So here is Mint 13 on my 2nd machine running Windows 7 and 2000, everything is in Windows Classic Look. ;) Uptime as you can see on the right-side window: 7 days, 23 hrs


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