[submix8c]

Phaenius, on 17 January 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

bphlpt, on 15 January 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Why not? You have no friends that would help you out and let you plug your card in their system for 30 minutes to play some music you both like?

No.

How sad... @jaclaz - Apparently so... (submix8c wonders if that's why the topic was opened)

Phaenius, on 17 January 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

bphlpt, on 15 January 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

3 - Repeatedly insists Cable<->Front Panel is good (assumes, natch)
4 - Insists FrontPanel<->Coax<->ActiveSpeakers is good (assumes, natch)

3. Cable IS good. Front panel I don't know, but I assume it is.
4. This I didn't say. You are speculating. There are several things that could be wrong on this connection. Sound card, front panel, active speakers' DAC, active speakers' amplifier. Basically everything EXCEPT the cable. What on earth could be wrong with the cable ? The only things required for a cable are to make good contact (it does), to have a good consistency throughout all it's length (no reason to suspect) and to be able to withstand the amount of current/data transferred (oh yeah, good, thick cable).

3. See? You said it again - "ASSUME". so you NEVER disconnected it (SHORTS, dude).
4. I dare you get a brand spanky new one, stomp on it, or twist it a couple of times. This type of thing is exactly what causes a SHORT (there's that word again) between internal wiring. Remember the example I gave about 4-hour time waste? Simple continuity check on one end ONLY to see if there is FULL OPEN (a new word for you). Wires CAN go bad INSIDE the "heavy duty" (I thought I clearly pointed that out to you). Speculation - NO, A DISTINCT POSSIBILITY.

bphlpt, on 17 January 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Phaenius, on 17 January 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

It active speakers would be blown, I wouldn't be able to hear anything from them, don't I ?

Not necessarily, it all depends on the type of damage. A damaged speaker cone might only sound bad at certain frequencies and/or volumes, for instance.

Google

loudspeaker construction

Nope, just CAN'T fail, right? We've had to disconnect a single "dump" (bottoms/subwoofer) box before a gig, leaving one double-15" on one side as opposed to two due to "rattling"/"buzzing"/etc to get through the gig to prevent being FIRED/BLACKBALLED (remember?).

To summarize -
1 - Cable<->Front COULD be bad (untested ASSUMED good)
2 - Coax<->Speaker COULD be bad (untested ASSUMED good)
3 - Coax<->SpeakerConnector (on the Speaker) SHORT (untested BACK OF SPEAKER)
4 - Speaker Partially Blown (coil rubbing - untested ASSUMED good)
5 - Speaker Amplifier Failing (untested ASSUMED good - see #3)
---- (also note that same problem of Card Dirty/Failing is same as Speaker Amp)
6 - Speaker CircuitSwitchBetween(INTERNAL inside Speaker) failing/shorting between Analog/Coax
7 - Speaker Crossovers (internal) FAILING
See all of those ASSUMPTIONS? Big Fail, in my book...
Seems to revolve around the FrontPanel/Coax/SpeakerFailure. My money (ASSUMING #1 #2 is good, as YOU assume) is on some Speaker Component failure (see #3->#7). You sure have a lot of faith in those Active (nearly unheard of Brand) Speakers, don't you? At the price they charged, I would suggest replacing them with Name Brand (e.g. Bose).

Funny how the OTHER
Output -> POWERED-receiver->UNPOWERED-speaker
works just fine...

One more troubleshooting tip - raise the Gain until you hear that "whatever" and listen CLOSELY to each of Low/Mid/High. Whichever one is "whatever", it's just THAT part of the Speaker that's failing OR the Crossover Burned Out and is allowing Low->Mid and/or Low/Mid->High, thus allowing a Frequency through not meant to be there. Crack open the Boxes and disconnect THAT Speaker inside and see if it STILL "whatever". (Didn't research Crossovers either, did you?)
(Yes, Speakers-aka-Drivers can be replaced with equivalent or slightly higher powered @ same Ohms.)

BTW, I believe I stated you DO have "Pro" equipment - correction: Semi-Pro. Sennheiser, BTW, is top-of-the-line and not too cheap. You provide a Name Brand Sound Equipment (any kind) and I've probably used it.

=====

Might want to LOCK this topic as it's becoming an exercise in futility...

[bphlpt]

submix8c, on 17 January 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Might want to LOCK this topic as it's becoming an exercise in futility...

Nah. Let's just wait until the OP provides any useful new information. Until then I think we've said all we have to say - at least I have.

Cheers and Regards

[Phaenius]

I said I won't reply on this thread until I will open and clean the card, but I see you replied on my latest post and I feel somehow obliged to reply. Just some quick words, though.

bphlpt

Thank-you for a very nice post. You pointed out things very accurately. Problems with the Creative sound card deteriorated progressively, not at once. That's the worse kind. When things start to slowly degrade, so slowest the decay, the worst. You adapt and when you realize something is definitely wrong, it's well stuck and hard to isolate. I think it's most likely a hardware issue. As you pointed out, same albums that worked in the past, now don't, players are more or less the same (I upgraded to latest versions, but don't suspect them, I believe it would sound the same with the old version as well), OS is now Windows 7 (it was Vista when I bought the card), but again, it worked for a while under Windows 7. Card worked correctly on all outputs (digital coaxial and optical, analogue and headphones on front panel). It didn't distort, not cap, not metallic sound, had a powerful and clear sound. Now, everything I do, I can restore it.

submix8c

Let's take the premise that (apart for the ribbon cable between card and front panel which will be replaced with a better one) cables are good and everything else is susceptible. I don't know if you are mocking me with the cables, you keep insisting with that and other experiences with professional equipment not related to my case and which most of it I don't understand. Cables are good, it's for the last time I will mention that, they conduct, they make good contact. I will leave out possibilities close to 0 probability, otherwise I could suspect every single soldering on the sound card or each wire on the ribbon cable.

My equipment is not professional, not even close. But, for a regular user, I believe it is a decent one. Bottom line is it's not something fancy (I can't afford it), but definitely not a piece of junk. It should work better than now. And it did for a while.

Next week I will do "the job". If won't be successful in my trying, I should try and buy a new card. God knows what, since it looks Creative failed me. I could go for another X-Fi Creative, an Asus Sonar of some kind of M-Audio, I read people saying they are good. Bad things about M-Audio is they don't have front panels to accommodate all sort of digital inputs and outputs (I forgot to mention, I use the input of this sound card to pass some other equipment through it as well) and no headphone connector.

[jaclaz]

Phaenius, on 18 January 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Next week I will do "the job".

Good.
Then we have a few days for "general chatting" in the meantime.

Just for the record, this sentence is partially inaccurate:

Phaenius, on 17 January 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

But bad things can strike to anyone at any time, in any area, sometimes it is a pain in the butt to find the problem and repair it, mine is a super easy one if I would have a lot of money (I don't), simply replace everything there is on the chain with new parts. But that would mean a very inefficient way of solving the problems.

If you really had a lot of money, you would call someone who works for you and tell him/her:

Quote

Have this PC's sound fixed!

(BTW this kind of passive form of imperative is a nice feature of English, is not available in Italian in a comparable form)

jaclaz

[submix8c]

Professional or not, the "premise" is sound and you have not "proven" otherwise.

http://www.thegearpa.../t-1036473.html

Quote

Set it to read resistance (Ω's). Start with the highest Ω setting on your meter. With the probes not touching anything it should read infinite. Touch the probes to each other and it should read zero.

Touch the probes to the tips of the two ends of the cable. Should read zero. Otherwise the hot signal conductor in the center of your cable is broken (or there's a bad solder joint to it in one of the plugs).

Touch the probes to the shafts of the two ends of the cable. Should read zero. Otherwise the braided shield layer in your cable is broken (or there's a bad solder joint to it in one of the plugs).

Touch the probes to one tip and one shaft. Should read infinite. Otherwise you have a short between the conductor and shield in your cable (or a solder joint that is shorting them in one of the plugs.)


Over the years, I've had MANY cables die because of broken conductors (or more likely broken insulator sheath that causes a short from shield to conductor) within a foot of the plug. You can tell when it intermittently cuts out when you wiggle it right at the broken spot. I just cut 'em off and solder on a new plug. So now I have a bunch of working 19 foot cables. I almost never see a solder joint in a plug go bad, though.

This concept (which you refuse to acknowledge) applies to ALL cables, not just a Coax. Have a look at the construction of a Coax -
http://en.wikipedia....i/Coaxial_cable
Can you say "SHORT"???? (come on, I KNOW you can... )

[Phaenius]

submix8c, on 18 January 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Can you say "SHORT"???? (come on, I KNOW you can... )

OK, you (and you alone) are kindly asked to stop giving me further advice or assistance. I had enough coming from you and I don't think I did anything to deserve it. You are not funny. You crossed a certain border, it's not the first time.

Jaclaz, I think there is an equivalent in Italian. Otherwise, how could Italians would translate the famous Cpt. Piccard's "Make it so !"

[submix8c]

Come on - acknowledge that a short is possible... Have a problem with that?

What border did I cross? Insisting that you MIGHT be wrong when you insist you are not?

[bphlpt]

Well, I'll agree with Phaenius that I don't think that any of his cables have failed with a complete short. Yes, he could have either a weakened spot in the internal cable insulation causing leakage. or he could have a loose, failing, or slightly corroded connector which would cause a deteriorated signal to be transmitted, or he could have a very small piece of something conductive that has gotten into his system and is slightly, and/or occasionally causing a very small short under certain circumstances, frequency vibrations, or whatever. But I've already said all I need to say about cables. If any of those possibilities of failure are the case, hopefully he will discover, or at least dislodge, whatever was there when he does his cleaning next week. If his thorough cleaning makes no difference, then we'll be back to assuming that he either has a failing set of active speakers or a failing sound card or front panel. But since the receiver/passive speakers sound fine, I would bet it's the active speakers. If anyone has any ideas how he can narrow down which part is bad without swapping parts out I'm sure he would appreciate finding out about such a method.

Cheers and Regards

[Phaenius]

bphlpt, on 18 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

If his thorough cleaning makes no difference, then we'll be back to assuming that he either has a failing set of active speakers or a failing sound card or front panel. But since the receiver/passive speakers sound fine, I would bet it's the active speakers. If anyone has any ideas how he can narrow down which part is bad without swapping parts out I'm sure he would appreciate finding out about such a method.

If speakers are faulty to some extend (ONLY the capping problem, because otherwise they sound fine), and as you say, it doesn't manifest on receiver/passive speakers, why sound card sounds bad on headphones ? As I said, there are actually 2 problems, one the capping (manifesting in active speakers mostly, I am not totally ruling out a sound card problem on this matter as well, since active speakers doesn't "cap" that much on the other on-board card, but they still do), and one the "bad" sound, distorted to some extend, metallic, lacking consistence and richness. Hard to described but that's how it's sounds. It's not a warm, pleasant sound anymore. This is mostly seen on headphones, since both active speakers and receiver/passive speakers combination have their own way to "soften the sound" somehow, plus you can't discover imperfections in sound at a distance the same way you find out using headphones. I tested several headphones on the sound card, they all manifest in the same way. But Sennheiser are the best phones I have, so the rest are not that good (a pair of AKG-66, a pair of Philips and two sets of in-ear Samsung and Sony). It's that bad I stopped using the Creative sound card for the time being, I am using the on-board (cheap and not so good, but working) Realtek HD.

All-in-all, next week I will do the "surgery" and see if I can resuscitate the patient. At least I will have something concrete in my hands. It's like in real surgery, painful as it is, cutting the patient open can offer more information than theorizing.

[jaclaz]

@Phaenius
The "Make it so" is still a "normal" imperative, it's the form "have something done" that I sometimes miss (of course there are ways to convey the same, but they don't sound as effective and cannot be made in a short sentence).
In Italian "Make it so" is translated effectively with "Lo faccia" or sometimes with "Proceda" (which are similar, respectively, to "Just do it" and "Proceed").

There is an anecdote in the life of a famous actor (I seem to remember it was Peter O'Toole) about when he did some tests to become officer in the army.
Since he didn't want to actually be enrolled as an officer to a written test question that sounded something like:

Quote

Your platoon is carrying three 200 kg oil barrels, you only have a piece of rope 5 meters long and you are tasked to carry the barrels beyond a 4 m tall wall.
How do you do this?

To which, he purposefully replied jokingly with:

Quote

I call the sergeant and order him: "Have these three barrels on the other side of this wall!"

To his great surprise it was the right answer and he passed the test.

jaclaz

[Phaenius]

Well, God said "Let there be light" and there was light. Isn't this some form of imperative ? How that phrase sound in Italian ?

[jaclaz]

Phaenius, on 19 January 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Well, God said "Let there be light" and there was light. Isn't this some form of imperative ? How that phrase sound in Italian ?

Yes, that is an accepted form, "Che la luce sia". (but only God can say something like that)

The linguistic issue is about the use of the auxiliary verb to have (avere in italian).

In English, you can say (even without being a deity or God ) something like:

"I want to have this shirt washed"

Which to me implies "I don't care in the least who exactly will wash/clean this, nor how exactly this cleaning is performed, I am charging you with this task, do whatever you see fit as long as the result is reached".

The same form in Italian is possible, but it simply sounds "silly" or somehow unneededly "pompous" (and it sounds more like a "wish"):
"Vorrei che questa camicia venisse lavata."

The "direct order":
"Have this shirt washed."
is possible in English, but not in Italian, which can only be made in the direct form "Lava questa camicia" (which translates back to "Wash this shirt") that implies that you are charging directly the other person to actually do the thing (instead of seeing that it is done) .

JFYI, and definitely OT:
http://www.msfn.org/...f-common-signs/

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 19 January 2013 - 06:38 AM

[Phaenius]

I think you are making a too much case out of it. Have this washed has the same meaning as wash this.

There is an example of "have this washed" in my latest posted pic.

This post has been edited by Phaenius: 19 January 2013 - 08:06 AM

[bphlpt]

The difference is subtle (the difference is in how, or by whom, it might be accomplished), while the result (you end up with a washed shirt) is the same.

Cheers and Regards

[bphlpt]

Phaenius, on 19 January 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

If speakers are faulty to some extend (ONLY the capping problem, because otherwise they sound fine), and as you say, it doesn't manifest on receiver/passive speakers, why sound card sounds bad on headphones ? As I said, there are actually 2 problems, one the capping (manifesting in active speakers mostly, I am not totally ruling out a sound card problem on this matter as well, since active speakers doesn't "cap" that much on the other on-board card, but they still do), and one the "bad" sound, distorted to some extend, metallic, lacking consistence and richness.

The bigger question I have now is do the passive speakers through the receiver sound fine under all circumstances, at all volumes using any source? If so, in my mind that would rule out the sound card unless it has a very odd failure. But then if the sound card is fine it also is very odd that you have problems that have simultaneously occurred in your active speakers and over three sets of headphones. Very very strange.

Cheers and Regards

[Phaenius]

I can't rule out the sound card, since it sounds bad via headphones, unless all headphones are faulty (quite unlikely). Besides, what can go wrong inside a headphones set ? They only have basically 2 electric devices, 2 coils. Passive components. They can either have a mechanical failure (coil rubbing the magnets or membrane broken) or a wire failure due to excessive heat melting the isolation or simply discontinuity. Not the case. Why do I say it sounds better via receiver and passive speakers ? Because somehow they tend to "enhance" the sound somehow, both receiver and active speakers have all sorts of filters, EQs and so on, a set of headphones doesn't have. Plus, headphones are connected in close vicinity of your ears, you spot faults easier.

I didn't test the receiver extensively at all sounds and levels and sources, because so far, I didn't have to. When I bought the card, I plugged it into computer, connected the headphones on front panel, it worked fine, then connected the sound card to receiver and I used headphones on receiver, it sounded even better, perfect (to my likening) I should say. Then I moved and unpacked the computer at first, without receiver, passive speakers (which are big and heavy) and other big devices and decided to use the front panel sound headphones plug on the sound card for a while. Result was bad, somehow, during my listening via receiver, sound card went bad (and I failed to notice). Or perhaps during the moving of computer. So, I stopped using receiver and passive speakers to avoid inflicting damage to it. I bought this set of active speakers and connected to the coaxial output.

I know the thread title is about "capping", but I am more concerned at the moment about the general sound I am getting via headphones, more than capping. I am sure the active speakers were faulty when I bought them, with this limitation of sound somewhere. If the capping is happening inside the active speakers, at least one problem is solved. Maybe they simply fail to supply the amplifier with enough current to withstand "heavy" passages of music, I really don't know.

Not three sets of headphones, 5 sets, Sennheiser, AKG, Philips, Samsung and Sony.

But let us wait until I will clean the card and try to do the best I can in replacing ribbon cable, moving to another slot, whatever I can and report the results. It is clear as it stands, nothing can be done without a direct action to sound card. I would have LOVED to have (and/or to know how to use it) a software program that could detect imperfections in DACs or analogue amplifiers. Something like generating some predefined sounds and prompting me to watch some sine waves on a software oscilloscope and notice if the visual waves stay within normal limits. I am fearful the card may have a voltage leakage somewhere that mixes with the "correct" sound.

[jaclaz]

Phaenius, on 19 January 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I would have LOVED to have (and/or to know how to use it) a software program that could detect imperfections in DACs or analogue amplifiers. Something like generating some predefined sounds and prompting me to watch some sine waves on a software oscilloscope and notice if the visual waves stay within normal limits. I am fearful the card may have a voltage leakage somewhere that mixes with the "correct" sound.

You were actually provided with some, but again having a software and learning HOW to use it, are two separate steps, the first one can be easily reached through "third party action" (the given suggestions) the latter only by your time and will (and curiosity).

jaclaz

[Phaenius]

I know, but those programs are too complicated and didn't provide easy steps in how to do things. It implies you already know what to do.

[jaclaz]

Phaenius, on 19 January 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

It implies you already know what to do.

....or that you learn about how to do it....

I mean, it's not brain surgery, nor rocket science ....


jaclaz

[bphlpt]

Phaenius, on 19 January 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

When I bought the card, I plugged it into computer, connected the headphones on front panel, it worked fine, then connected the sound card to receiver and I used headphones on receiver, it sounded even better, perfect (to my likening) I should say. Then I moved and unpacked the computer at first, without receiver, passive speakers (which are big and heavy) and other big devices and decided to use the front panel sound headphones plug on the sound card for a while. Result was bad, somehow, during my listening via receiver, sound card went bad (and I failed to notice). Or perhaps during the moving of computer. So, I stopped using receiver and passive speakers to avoid inflicting damage to it. I bought this set of active speakers and connected to the coaxial output.

I don't think I had seen this info before (moving). When you clean the entire computer, not just the sound card, but everything in the entire hardware chain from motherboard all the way to the speakers, be very attentive and careful when you put everything back together to make sure that all connections are straight, snug, and clean, absolutely nothing is touching anything else that it shouldn't, etc. The moving brings up the possibility of a mechanical event that could have caused the electrical problem that is evidenced in your aural symptom.

Cheers and Regards