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vipejc

Motherboard front panel header and case front panel connectors don&#39

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I NEVER use CS at, at any time, on any cable, an any connector, on any device, ever. :)

I manually jumper the devices to Master and Slave, and connect only to 80-pin IDE cables. Assuming your motherboard has two IDE connectors, it shouldn't make any difference whether you connect your HDD "C" and your DVD both as Master on separate cables connected to your motherboard, or if you connect your HDD "C" as Master and your DVD as Slave on the same cable, but you could try it both ways. In both cases, swap the motherboard connectors you use and see if that makes a difference, but the HDD "should" be connected to the IDE motherboard connector with the lowest number, 0 or 1, depending on how your motherboard is marked. In all cases check if the BIOS is picking up the devices correctly or not. If not, it is extraordinarily doubtful, if not impossible, that Windows will be able to do any better. If the BIOS is not picking things up right, if possible, plug the cables and HDD or DVD into another computer and verify it is picked up correctly there. If the other computer picks it up right, then the problem is on your motherboard or in a BIOS setting. (If it is able to disable an IDE channel perhaps, I'm just guessing here.) If the other computer does not pick it up right, I'd bet it is the cable. Try swapping the cables from the HDD to the DVD to confirm. You should also look very carefully at the connectors on the back of the DVD and on the motherboard to make sure that in your plugging and unplugging that you didn't bend a pin by mistake. It's happened. The connectors should all have either 39 or 40 pins. The only one that should/can be missing is pin 20 which is sometimes used as a key. See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA That's all I've got for now.

Here's what's under HKLM > SYSTEM > MountedDevices:

\DosDevices\C: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\D: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\E: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\F: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\G: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\H: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\I: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\J: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\K: REG BINARY Data

Can I safely delete all these except C: and D:?

I'd delete all except C: and let it rediscover everything else when it needs it.

The BIOS does detect the DVD burner as Channel 0 Device 1 on auto.

Yes, leave the BIOS settings for all IDE channels on "Auto"

Cheers and Regards

Edited by bphlpt
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I NEVER use CS at, at any time, on any cable, an any connector, on any device, ever. :)

I manually jumper the devices to Master and Slave, and connect only to 80-pin IDE cables. Assuming your motherboard has two IDE connectors, it shouldn't make any difference whether you connect your HDD "C" and your DVD both as Master on separate cables connected to your motherboard, or if you connect your HDD "C" as Master and your DVD as Slave on the same cable, but you could try it both ways. In both cases, swap the motherboard connectors you use and see if that makes a difference, but the HDD "should" be connected to the IDE motherboard connector with the lowest number, 0 or 1, depending on how your motherboard is marked. In all cases check if the BIOS is picking up the devices correctly or not. If not, it is extraordinarily doubtful, if not impossible, that Windows will be able to do any better. If the BIOS is not picking things up right, if possible, plug the cables and HDD or DVD into another computer and verify it is picked up correctly there. If the other computer picks it up right, then the problem is on your motherboard or in a BIOS setting. (If it is able to disable an IDE channel perhaps, I'm just guessing here.) If the other computer does not pick it up right, I'd bet it is the cable. Try swapping the cables from the HDD to the DVD to confirm. You should also look very carefully at the connectors on the back of the DVD and on the motherboard to make sure that in your plugging and unplugging that you didn't bend a pin by mistake. It's happened. The connectors should all have either 39 or 40 pins. The only one that should/can be missing is pin 20 which is sometimes used as a key. See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA That's all I've got for now.

Here's what's under HKLM > SYSTEM > MountedDevices:

\DosDevices\C: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\D: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\E: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\F: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\G: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\H: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\I: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\J: REG BINARY Data

\DosDevices\K: REG BINARY Data

Can I safely delete all these except C: and D:?

I'd delete all except C: and let it rediscover everything else when it needs it.

The BIOS does detect the DVD burner as Channel 0 Device 1 on auto.

Yes, leave the BIOS settings for all IDE channels on "Auto"

Cheers and Regards

None of those are the problem. As funny as it sounds, I bet if I use the original OEM IDE cable setup of one master cable for the hard disk on channel 0 and the other master and slave cable on channel 1, the DVD drive will be detected by Windows. I've never heard of Windows being so picky about IDE cables before, but I just have a feeling this will solve it. I don't know why, but I just know it probably will.

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[...] I bet if I use the original OEM IDE cable setup of one master cable for the hard disk on channel 0 and the other master and slave cable on channel 1, the DVD drive will be detected by Windows. [...]

That sounds like one of the arrangements I suggested. How were you trying to connect it that didn't work? What was different?

And what did this mean anyway, just out of curiosity? (I don't know what "upper and lower filters registry entries" are.)

[...] I tried removing the upper and lower filters registry entries [...]

Cheers and Regards

Edited by bphlpt
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[...] I bet if I use the original OEM IDE cable setup of one master cable for the hard disk on channel 0 and the other master and slave cable on channel 1, the DVD drive will be detected by Windows. [...]

That sounds like one of the arrangements I suggested. How were you trying to connect it that didn't work? What was different?

Single cable set to CS and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to M; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Double cable set to CS and CS; Windows won't boot.

And what did this mean anyway, just out of curiosity? (I don't know what "upper and lower filters registry entries" are.)

These have something to do with optical drives and sometimes deleting them restores the optical drive icons in My Computer, but not for me.

[...] I tried removing the upper and lower filters registry entries [...]

Cheers and Regards

Has anyone ever heard of an OEM BIOS requiring a certain IDE cable setup, or it will cause these kinds of issues? That's the only thing it could be.

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We do NOT consult "crystal balls" here.

No, actually we do :yes: , issue is with the reliability of those thingies.

@vipejc

READ this:

AND links in it.

jaclaz

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Are you using an 80 pin IDE cable or a 40?

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Are you using an 80 pin IDE cable or a 40?

All my IDE cables are 80 wire.

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All my IDE cables are 80 wire.

Another reason to read the given post and links.

80 wire cables are colour coded, you cannot "invent" a master or slave, if the connector is gray, it is for a slave device, if it is black it is for a master device, the blue ONLY goes to the motherboard and still using cable select is NOT recommended (by me).

jaclaz

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All my IDE cables are 80 wire.

Another reason to read the given post and links.

80 wire cables are colour coded, you cannot "invent" a master or slave, if the connector is gray, it is for a slave device, if it is black it is for a master device, the blue ONLY goes to the motherboard and still using cable select is NOT recommended (by me).

jaclaz

Yes, I know. All my cables are color coded like you said. Why don't you like cable select? And why is my IDE ports so fussy?

Single cable = IDE cable with 2 connectors

Double cable = IDE cable with 3 connectors

Single cable set to CS and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to M; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Double cable set to CS and CS; Windows won't boot.

Single cable set to M; works.

Double cable set to Master with slave present (Western Digital) and slave; works but DVD burner is not detected in Windows.

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Yes, I know. All my cables are color coded like you said.

You may know :), but unfortunately you completely fail to show your knowledge :w00t: , in the sense that you haven't (yet) found a way to properly communicate your experiments. :ph34r:

Why don't you like cable select? And why is my IDE ports so fussy?

Because they tend to NEVER work properly/because it's not just your motherboard IDE ports (or BIOS) that are particularly fussy.

Thus DO NOT use Cable Select, in most cases it resolves to a vain attempt.

Single cable = IDE cable with 2 connectors

WHICH colours are the connectors on that single cable?

Double cable = IDE cable with 3 connectors

WHICH colours are the connectors on that double cable?

ALL THESE make little of NO sense:

Single cable set to CS and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to M; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Double cable set to CS and CS; Windows won't boot.

Single cable set to M; works.

Double cable set to Master with slave present (Western Digital) and slave; works but DVD burner is not detected in Windows.

Examples of something I (and I guess I am not the only one complòetely failing to make head or tail of yourt reports) can understand:

Device: Hard disk

Connected to: IDE port 0

Jumpers on device: set to Master

Cable used: single

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black

Device: CD/DVD

Connected to: IDE port 1

Jumpers on device: set to Master

Cable used: single

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black

or:

Device: Hard disk

Connected to: IDE port 0

Jumpers on device: set to Master

Cable used: double

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black

Device: CD/DVD

Connected to: IDE port 0

Jumpers on device: set to Slave

Cable used: single

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Grey

jaclaz

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Yes, I know. All my cables are color coded like you said.

You may know :), but unfortunately you completely fail to show your knowledge :w00t: , in the sense that you haven't (yet) found a way to properly communicate your experiments. :ph34r:

Why don't you like cable select? And why is my IDE ports so fussy?

Because they tend to NEVER work properly/because it's not just your motherboard IDE ports (or BIOS) that are particularly fussy.

Thus DO NOT use Cable Select, in most cases it resolves to a vain attempt.

Single cable = IDE cable with 2 connectors

WHICH colours are the connectors on that single cable?

Double cable = IDE cable with 3 connectors

WHICH colours are the connectors on that double cable?

ALL THESE make little of NO sense:

Single cable set to CS and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to M; no BIOS detection.

Single cable set to M and single cable set to CS; no BIOS detection.

Double cable set to CS and CS; Windows won't boot.

Single cable set to M; works.

Double cable set to Master with slave present (Western Digital) and slave; works but DVD burner is not detected in Windows.

Examples of something I (and I guess I am not the only one complòetely failing to make head or tail of yourt reports) can understand:

Device: Hard disk

Connected to: IDE port 0

Jumpers on device: set to Master

Cable used: single

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black

Device: CD/DVD

Connected to: IDE port 1

Jumpers on device: set to Master

Cable used: single

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black

or:

Device: Hard disk

Connected to: IDE port 0

Jumpers on device: set to Master

Cable used: double

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black

Device: CD/DVD

Connected to: IDE port 0

Jumpers on device: set to Slave

Cable used: single

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Grey

jaclaz

In other words, these two IDE cable configurations are the only ones that seem to fully or partially work:

Device: Hard disk

Connected to: IDE channel 0

Jumpers on device: Master or Single (WD)

Cable used: Single

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black

Result: Works

=====================

Device: Hard disk

Connected to: IDE channel 0

Jumpers on device: Master w/ slave present (WD)

Cable used: Double

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Gray (doesn't matter)

Device: DVD burner

Connected to: IDE channel 0

Jumpers on device: Slave

Cable used: Double

Connector colour connected to motherboard: Blue

Connector colour connected to device: Black (doesn't matter)

Result: Works but DVD burner is not detected in Windows

Note: both devices are detected in BIOS.

Edited by vipejc
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Yes, it DOES matter! (now that we know WHAT you are using and HOW you've been connecting)

3-connector 80-conductor cable NOT USING "CS"!!!

Blue=MoBo

(end, REGARDLESS of color - or maybe BLACK?)=Master (HDD)

(center, REGARDLESS of color - or maybe GREY?)=Slave (DVD)

End is ALWAYS "Master", Center is ALWAYS "Slave" - just like 40-conductor! The only "magic" is the BLUE goes to MoBo!

From jaclaz' link (AND HE SAID IT TOO!)

Blue: The blue connector attaches to the host (motherboard or controller).

Gray: The gray connector is in the middle of the cable, and goes to any slave (device 1) drive if present on the channel.

Black: The black connector is at the opposite end from the host connector and goes to the master drive (device 0), or a single drive if only one is used.

PLEASE, get with the program!

This MoBo is WAY too new to bother with CS, of which OLD MoBo's would sometimes "recommend" it OR the junky OLD CD/DVD would "recommend" it. And, as stated, CS is many times unreliable (MY "last resort").

P.S. Some "genius BIOS" is perfectly happy with "detecting" even though WRONG!

Edited by submix8c
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Yes, it DOES matter! (now that we know WHAT you are using and HOW you've been connecting)

3-connector 80-conductor cable NOT USING "CS"!!!

Blue=MoBo

(end, REGARDLESS of color - or maybe BLACK?)=Master (HDD)

(center, REGARDLESS of color - or maybe GREY?)=Slave (DVD)

End is ALWAYS "Master", Center is ALWAYS "Slave" - just like 40-conductor! The only "magic" is the BLUE goes to MoBo!

From jaclaz' link (AND HE SAID IT TOO!)

Blue: The blue connector attaches to the host (motherboard or controller).

Gray: The gray connector is in the middle of the cable, and goes to any slave (device 1) drive if present on the channel.

Black: The black connector is at the opposite end from the host connector and goes to the master drive (device 0), or a single drive if only one is used.

PLEASE, get with the program!

This MoBo is WAY too new to bother with CS, of which OLD MoBo's would sometimes "recommend" it OR the junky OLD CD/DVD would "recommend" it. And, as stated, CS is many times unreliable (MY "last resort").

P.S. Some "genius BIOS" is perfectly happy with "detecting" even though WRONG!

Huh? I just read an article from a credible source yesterday that said it doesn't matter which connector you use for master and slave. All that matters is the jumpers are set correctly. This BIOS is from 2004. I've never had a problem with Cable Select in 8 years, which was the original jumper settings on the hard disk, CD-ROM and DVD burner. Let me try to find the article again and share it with you....

Found it.

It does not matter which connector is used for master or slave in a standard IDE setup. However, when using Ultra DMA in a single-drive configuration you should use the end connector because of electrical signaling issues.

But let's assume you're right and they're wrong. It still doesn't explain why all those other IDE cable configurations failed.

Edited by vipejc
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[...] I just read an article from a credible source yesterday that said it doesn't matter which connector you use for master and slave. All that matters is the jumpers are set correctly. This BIOS is from 2004. I've never had a problem with Cable Select in 8 years, which was the original jumper settings on the hard disk, CD-ROM and DVD burner. Let me try to find the article again and share it with you....

Found it.

It does not matter which connector is used for master or slave in a standard IDE setup. However, when using Ultra DMA in a single-drive configuration you should use the end connector because of electrical signaling issues. [...]

From my previously referenced link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA[

Parallel ATA interface

[...]

Though the number of wires doubled, the number of connector pins and the pinout remain the same as 40-conductor cables, and the external appearance of the connectors is identical. Internally the connectors are different; the connectors for the 80-wire cable connect a larger number of ground wires to a smaller number of ground pins, while the connectors for the 40-wire cable connect ground wires to ground pins one-for-one. 80-wire cables usually come with three differently colored connectors (blue, black, and gray for controller, master drive, and slave drive respectively) as opposed to uniformly colored 40-wire cable's connectors (commonly all gray). The gray connector on 80-conductor cables has pin 28 CSEL not connected, making it the slave position for drives configured cable select.

[...]

Pin 20

In the ATA standard pin 20 is defined as (mechanical) key and is not used. This socket on the female connector is often obstructed, requiring pin 20 to be omitted from the male cable or drive connector, making it impossible to plug it in the wrong way round; a male connector with pin 20 present cannot be used. However, some flash memory drives can use pin 20 as VCC_in to power the drive without requiring a special power cable; this feature can only be used if the equipment supports this use of pin 20.

Pin 28

Pin 28 of the gray (slave/middle) connector of an 80 conductor cable is not attached to any conductor of the cable. It is attached normally on the black (master drive end) and blue (motherboard end) connectors.

Pin 34

Pin 34 is connected to ground inside the blue connector of an 80 conductor cable but not attached to any conductor of the cable. It is attached normally on the gray and black connectors. See page 315 of.

[...]

Differences between connectors on 80-conductor cables

[...]

Note the connections to the common ground bus from sockets 2 (top left), 19 (center bottom row), 22, 24, 26, 30, and 40 on all connectors. Also note (enlarged detail, bottom, looking from the opposite side of the connector) that socket 34 of the blue connector does not contact any conductor but unlike socket 34 of the other two connectors, it does connect to the common ground bus. On the gray connector, note that socket 28 is completely missing, so that pin 28 of the drive attached to the gray connector will be open. On the black connector, sockets 28 and 34 are completely normal, so that pins 28 and 34 of the drive attached to the black connector will be connected to the cable. Pin 28 of the black drive reaches pin 28 of the host receptacle but not pin 28 of the gray drive, while pin 34 of the black drive reaches pin 34 of the gray drive but not pin 34 of the host. Instead, pin 34 of the host is grounded.

The standard dictates color-coded connectors for easy identification by both installer and cable maker. All three connectors are different from one another. The blue (host) connector has the socket for pin 34 connected to ground inside the connector but not attached to any conductor of the cable. Since the old 40 conductor cables do not ground pin 34, the presence of a ground connection indicates that an 80 conductor cable is installed. The wire for pin 34 is attached normally on the other types and is not grounded. Installing the cable backwards (with the black connector on the system board, the blue connector on the remote device and the gray connector on the center device) will ground pin 34 of the remote device and connect host pin 34 through to pin 34 of the center device. The gray center connector omits the connection to pin 28 but connects pin 34 normally, while the black end connector connects both pins 28 and 34 normally.

Multiple devices on a cable

If two devices are attached to a single cable, one must be designated as device 0 (commonly referred to as master) and the other as device 1 (slave). This distinction is necessary to allow both drives to share the cable without conflict. The master drive is the drive that usually appears "first" to the computer's BIOS and/or operating system. On old BIOSes (Intel 486 era and older), the drives are often referred to by the BIOS as "C" for the master and "D" for the slave following the way DOS would refer to the active primary partitions on each.

The mode that a drive must use is often set by a jumper setting on the drive itself, which must be manually set to master or slave. If there is a single device on a cable, it should be configured as master. However, some hard drives have a special setting called single for this configuration (Western Digital, in particular). Also, depending on the hardware and software available, a single drive on a cable will often work reliably even though configured as the slave drive (most often seen where a CD ROM has a channel to itself).

Yes, the article also talks about CS, and yes, it is supposed to work. But I, and apparently jaclaz and submix8c, have had enough problems with it over the years, even with hardware that was specified to use CS, that I do not trust it. Problem I had were only solved by not using CS. No reason why was ever found by me or explained by the manufacturer. And you are trying to fix your problem, right? So why not do what has proven most reliable? Once working, if you want to go back and switch the jumpers on everything back to CS you can, and at that point it might work. But in the meantime, please eliminate as many possible trouble points as possible. It will make our, and your, job easier.

Cheers and Regards

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Huh? I just read an article from a credible source yesterday that said it doesn't matter which connector you use for master and slave. All that matters is the jumpers are set correctly. This BIOS is from 2004. I've never had a problem with Cable Select in 8 years, which was the original jumper settings on the hard disk, CD-ROM and DVD burner. Let me try to find the article again and share it with you....

Found it.

It does not matter which connector is used for master or slave in a standard IDE setup. However, when using Ultra DMA in a single-drive configuration you should use the end connector because of electrical signaling issues.

But let's assume you're right and they're wrong. It still doesn't explain why all those other IDE cable configurations failed.

Besides the fact that you failed to provide a link to your "reputable source", no actual problem, it's most probably this one :whistle: :

http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/other/52

I will re-state the whole base idea.

  1. You come here with a problem.
  2. You ask for suggestions on how to solve the problem. <- Mind you that the sheer fact that you are asking for these suggestions here implies, that you are NOT able to solve the problem yourself AND that you trust the knowledge/experience of other members to be superior than your own one.
  3. You are given a suggestion and some links to read that are by definition the most reputable/reliable ones available. If you prefer, by definition it is assumed that we are right and you are wrong (if and when doing anything not suggested)
  4. These links tell you to connect a Master to Black (end), a Slave to Gray (middle) and the motherboard to Blue with 80 wires cables, going into even the smallest details, including pinouts, history of the interface and what not.
  5. You would then be supposed to just §@ç#ing jumper and connect the drives as explained in the given links.

What you do INSTEAD? :w00t:

You insist on connecting the cables "casually" and find a "reputable" source that is much more vague than the given one (and it is clearly referring in the "main" part to the 40 wires cable), and that you ADDITIONALLY FAIL to READ accurately.

Here is the part that you completely missed:

The cable select feature was much improved with the introduction of 80-conductor Ultra DMA cables. The key changes were that the master connector has been moved to the end of the cable, putting the slave in the middle and all cables must support cable select now. You should be aware that if you swap an old 40-conductor cable select cable with an 80-conductor Ultra DMA cable your drive positions will swap logical positions, so you will have to change the order in which your drives connect to the cable.

EDIT:

@submix8c

End is ALWAYS "Master", Center is ALWAYS "Slave" - just like 40-conductor! The only "magic" is the BLUE goes to MoBo!

No, no, NO.

40 wires cables: one end to motherboard, other end to slave, middle master.

80 wires cable: Blue end to motherboard, other end Black to master, middle Gray slave.

You know, like in the above:

You should be aware that if you swap an old 40-conductor cable select cable with an 80-conductor Ultra DMA cable your drive positions will swap logical positions, so you will have to change the order in which your drives connect to the cable.

or in:

In case of cable select, often the Slave/Master are INVERTED when compared to the 80 Wire cables.

To re-cap:

  1. With 40 wires cable in case of cable select the end is slave, the middle is master and the "further" end goes to the motherboard (ONLY on 40 wires cables the three are interchangeable if you don't use cable select though in practice when you mount drives in a traditional cabinet it will come "natural" to connect the lower hard disk to the middle connector and the higher CD/DVD drive to the end one and the motherboard to the further end)
  2. With 80 wires cable in case of cable select the Black end is master, the Gray middle is slave, the Blue end goes to the motherboard. (even if you do not use cable select you should NOT change these connections, you can actually exchange Black with Gray BUT it is very likely you will have signal issues as current disk drives in use are using ATA 5 or 6 which use DMA modes 3 or 4 times faster than what originally prompted for use of the 80 connector cable with the master device on the end)

In practice, initially fake :w00t: that you are setting up a cable select system and connect connectors as per specs :yes: , then do not trust the devices :no: , nor the cable, nor the BIOS, nor anything else but the jumpers of the devices and set anyway the jumpers properly. ;)

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz
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