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BartPE, Macrium Reflect, and SATA optical drive

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#1
vipejc

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Just a couple questions about BartPE, Macrium Reflect, and SATA optical drives...

1. BartPE supports slipstreaming only storage or network drivers. Does that mean I can't use a SATA CD or DVD drive to run BartPE because SATA devices require third-party drivers in Windows XP and BartPE doesn't support slipstreaming removable media drivers? Or does BartPE consider an optical drive a storage device and I just need to slipstream the SATA controller driver into my BartPE build?

2. Macrium Reflect v4.2 doesn't natively support restoring an image to a smaller partition. However, if you use Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe, this isn't a problem. It says Robocopy is a robust file copy program that uses an existing file system. Can I copy both Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe to the same folder on my USB drive with the FAT32 file system and restore my Macrium image to a smaller partition that way?

Edited by vipejc, 21 December 2012 - 12:32 PM.

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#2
bphlpt

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2. Macrium Reflect v4.2 doesn't natively support restoring an image to a smaller partition. However, if you use Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe, this isn't a problem. It says Robocopy is a robust file copy program that uses an existing file system. Can I copy both Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe to the same folder on my USB drive with the FAT32 file system and restore my Macrium image to a smaller partition that way?


A safer, more flexible way might be to shrink your partition to the minimum size that will hold the data in it before making your Macrium image. That way you can more easily restore it to any partition that will hold the data.

Cheers and Regards

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#3
jaclaz

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@vipejc
1.
What are called "storage" are actually not drivers for the "storage devices" (which are "standard" and already included in any PE or Windows System), but drivers for the "storage controllers", i.e. what you may miss if you don't add it to the build could be the SATA/AHCI controller driver, the controller to which BOTH SATA hard disks and SATA CD/DVD drives are connected to.


2.
I guess you might find some interest in reading this thread:
http://www.msfn.org/...inside-windows/
it seems like you have not (yet ;)) very clear the difference between cloning, imaging and backup/restore. (don't worry it is seemingly very common because even the terminology used is often "vague" or "mixed").
Macrium Reflect is essentially an imaging solution (disk or volume/filesystem oriented).
Robocopy is a robust file copy (file based).

jaclaz

#4
vipejc

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2. Macrium Reflect v4.2 doesn't natively support restoring an image to a smaller partition. However, if you use Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe, this isn't a problem. It says Robocopy is a robust file copy program that uses an existing file system. Can I copy both Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe to the same folder on my USB drive with the FAT32 file system and restore my Macrium image to a smaller partition that way?


A safer, more flexible way might be to shrink your partition to the minimum size that will hold the data in it before making your Macrium image. That way you can more easily restore it to any partition that will hold the data.

Cheers and Regards


This isn't an option, as I have a new blank smaller hard disk that I need to restore my Macrium Reflect image to. The saved partition is 250 GB and the new one will be 160 GB. A 250 GB hard disk to a 160 GB hard disk. Can you please answer my original question about using a USB flash drive and Roborestore through BartPE, and keep with this strategy? Thank you.
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#5
vipejc

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@vipejc
1.
What are called "storage" are actually not drivers for the "storage devices" (which are "standard" and already included in any PE or Windows System), but drivers for the "storage controllers", i.e. what you may miss if you don't add it to the build could be the SATA/AHCI controller driver, the controller to which BOTH SATA hard disks and SATA CD/DVD drives are connected to.


2.
I guess you might find some interest in reading this thread:
http://www.msfn.org/...inside-windows/
it seems like you have not (yet ;)) very clear the difference between cloning, imaging and backup/restore. (don't worry it is seemingly very common because even the terminology used is often "vague" or "mixed").
Macrium Reflect is essentially an imaging solution (disk or volume/filesystem oriented).
Robocopy is a robust file copy (file based).

jaclaz


1. That's what I thought. Not a problem. I'll just slipstream my RAID/SATA controller driver into my next BartPE disc, and I'm sure the SATA optical drive will work just fine.

2. Can you please help me with this? Can I copy both Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe to the same folder on my USB drive with the FAT32 file system, click Roborestore.exe in BartPE's environment, and configure the GUI version to restore the image to a smaller partition? Or must I use the command prompt in BartPE and run Roborestore.exe and Robocopy.exe?

Edited by vipejc, 21 December 2012 - 02:51 PM.

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#6
submix8c

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(sigh...) Robocopy copies FILES and FOLDERS! It does NOT CLONE or IMAGE a ding-dong-doodle!

Try reading the thread. ;)

edit - there IS a thread/method for "copying"...

Edited by submix8c, 21 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.

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#7
submix8c

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DOH!!! Roborestore is the Macrium Reflect software(?).

Look here at another person with the same scenario. Seems that it answers your question as well. ;)

Link inside points to here.

Do I need to use RoboRestore?

No. In most cases you can use the normal disk image restore wizard. A tutorial for restoring with the Linux CD can be found here:
<snip>
RoboRestore provides an alternative method of restoring a disk image by copying the files in the image to an existing file system. Use RoboRestore if you want to restore to a disk that is smaller than the original or has a different partition alignment.

http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx
More info?
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=24225

Edited by submix8c, 21 December 2012 - 10:01 PM.

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#8
vipejc

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DOH!!! Roborestore is the Macrium Reflect software(?).

Look here at another person with the same scenario. Seems that it answers your question as well. ;)

Link inside points to here.

Do I need to use RoboRestore?

No. In most cases you can use the normal disk image restore wizard. A tutorial for restoring with the Linux CD can be found here:
<snip>
RoboRestore provides an alternative method of restoring a disk image by copying the files in the image to an existing file system. Use RoboRestore if you want to restore to a disk that is smaller than the original or has a different partition alignment.

http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx
More info?
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=24225


I had all that information. It doesn't answer my question. The question is Can I copy both Robocopy.exe and Roborestore.exe to the same folder on my USB drive with the FAT32 file system, click Roborestore.exe in BartPE's environment, and configure the GUI version to restore the image to a smaller partition? Or must I use the command prompt in BartPE and run Roborestore.exe and Robocopy.exe? And if so, what is the syntax to run Robocopy? That's all I need to know.
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#9
submix8c

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You didn't actually read the links or links-in-links, did you?

1 - YES YES YES YES (duh!!!) NT OS-based and Filesystem is... IRRELEVANT!
2 - ROBOCOPY /? (duh!) Did you even TRY to google
robocopy syntax
BOOM!!! All answers right there. Try harder next time. ;)

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#10
vipejc

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You didn't actually read the links or links-in-links, did you?

1 - YES YES YES YES (duh!!!) NT OS-based and Filesystem is... IRRELEVANT!
2 - ROBOCOPY /? (duh!) Did you even TRY to google

robocopy syntax
BOOM!!! All answers right there. Try harder next time. ;)


Yes, I did visit and read every link you gave. It didn't answer my question, which is why I asked again. After many more hours of research, I finally found my answer.
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#11
bphlpt

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After many more hours of research, I finally found my answer.


Which was?? (For other's benefit, it is the Christmas season after all. :) )

Cheers and Regards

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#12
vipejc

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After many more hours of research, I finally found my answer.


Which was?? (For other's benefit, it is the Christmas season after all. :) )

Cheers and Regards


The answer is you can use robocopy from within an emergency boot CD and restore the partition to a smaller drive. It's a lot of command line work, but it does work.
There's no such thing as a dumb computer question. Each of us interprets info differently. - Me

#13
bphlpt

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Did you find a tutorial that spelled out the steps involved that you can share the link to, or, just for future reference, can you enumerate further?

Cheers and Regards

Edited by bphlpt, 26 December 2012 - 02:45 AM.

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#14
vipejc

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Did you find a tutorial that spelled out the steps involved that you can share the link to, or, just for future reference, can you enumerate further?

Cheers and Regards


There's no point. Version 5 of Macrium Reflect supports restoring an image to a smaller drive by default. No sense in making things harder than they need to be. As for me, I'm stubborn and never upgrade unless I have a want or need. I'm not going to 5, because I HATE constantly making a new BartPE every time they change something. Maybe I'll just skip robo and shrink my existing XP partition with GParted from 250 GB to, say, 40 GB, and then it'll never be an issue.
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#15
jaclaz

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The answer is you can use robocopy from within an emergency boot CD and restore the partition to a smaller drive. It's a lot of command line work, but it does work.

NO, you cannot.
You can restore the contents (files/directories) to a NEW (smaller) partition, using robocopy, which AGAIN is short for robust FILE copy.
It copies files, and NOT filesystem/partitions/volumes.
Namely you will lose:
  • Volume Serial (you are not restoring a partition, you are restoring the contents of the old partition to a new one)
  • PBR/bootsector code (unless the original has the "standard" code of the OS you are creating the NEW (smaller) partition
  • Any contents of the "reserved sectors"
  • more likely than not creation date/times of folders (it depends on version of robocopy and of course on the switches used)
Of course if it is just a data partition this may have no consequences whatsoever.
You are doing FILE BASED save and restore, NOT partition/volume/filesystem based save and restore (they are NOT the same thing).

jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 26 December 2012 - 01:15 PM.


#16
vipejc

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The answer is you can use robocopy from within an emergency boot CD and restore the partition to a smaller drive. It's a lot of command line work, but it does work.

NO, you cannot.
You can restore the contents (files/directories) to a NEW (smaller) partition, using robocopy, which AGAIN is short for robust FILE copy.
It copies files, and NOT filesystem/partitions/volumes.
Namely you will lose:
  • Volume Serial (you are not restoring a partition, you are restoring the contents of the old partition to a new one)
  • PBR/bootsector code (unless the original has the "standard" code of the OS you are creating the NEW (smaller) partition
  • Any contents of the "reserved sectors"
  • more likely than not creation date/times of folders (it depends on version of robocopy and of course on the switches used)
Of course if it is just a data partition this may have no consequences whatsoever.
You are doing FILE BASED save and restore, NOT partition/volume/filesystem based save and restore (they are NOT the same thing).

jaclaz


This is a system partition of my entire Windows OS. Can robocopy even restore ALL the files and folders in the Macrium image, or would it be better to use GParted, shrink my existing partition to 40 GB, and create another Macrium image that can be restored to a larger or smaller partition no problem? I read I could lose data if I resize my partition. True?
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#17
submix8c

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Pshhhtttt - you paid absolutely NO attention to the LINKS I gave (and OTHER members) OR the STATEMENTS given by others? You must MOUNT the Image to ROBOCOPY it (Via RoboRestore?), or didn't you NOTICE all of that good info given? You will STILL have to PARTITION, FORMAT, FIX (reload) MBR, set it ACTIVE (BEFORE Robocopy from IMAGE CONTENTS), AND remove the C-Drive spec from the Registry (see MSFN link given by jaclaz) to even BOOT to it! OR ensure that the "magic ID bytes" MATCH in the ORIGINAL MBR as opposed to the NEW MBR. These "magic bytes" have a LOT to do with "where am I installed" and be FULLY AWARE that if you CHANGE TOO MUCH (other than just the HDD) you WILL have to reactivate.

You were SPECIFICALLY TOLD to learn about the DIFFERENCES between the processes to understand!
Jaclaz said

it seems like you have not (yet ;)) very clear the difference between cloning, imaging and backup/restore.

You NEVER followed up into the YET part, DID you?

You INITIALLY said

I have a new blank smaller hard disk that I need to restore my Macrium Reflect image to. The saved partition is 250 GB and the new one will be 160 GB.

NOW, if you REREAD what has been POSTED and UNDERSTAND what will FURTHER need to be done to "COPY" (you got THAT link too by jaclaz, as well as info in his LAST post) you SHOULD be ok to COPY.

RTFL (L=LINKS!) and RTFC (C=COMMENTS)... THIMK!!! (intentional misspelling).

Edited by submix8c, 26 December 2012 - 03:07 PM.

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

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#18
vipejc

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Pshhhtttt - you paid absolutely NO attention to the LINKS I gave (and OTHER members) OR the STATEMENTS given by others? You must MOUNT the Image to ROBOCOPY it (Via RoboRestore?), or didn't you NOTICE all of that good info given? You will STILL have to PARTITION, FORMAT, FIX (reload) MBR, set it ACTIVE (BEFORE Robocopy from IMAGE CONTENTS), AND remove the C-Drive spec from the Registry (see MSFN link given by jaclaz) to even BOOT to it! OR ensure that the "magic ID bytes" MATCH in the ORIGINAL MBR as opposed to the NEW MBR. These "magic bytes" have a LOT to do with "where am I installed" and be FULLY AWARE that if you CHANGE TOO MUCH (other than just the HDD) you WILL have to reactivate.

You were SPECIFICALLY TOLD to learn about the DIFFERENCES between the processes to understand!
Jaclaz said

it seems like you have not (yet ;)) very clear the difference between cloning, imaging and backup/restore.

You NEVER followed up into the YET part, DID you?

You INITIALLY said

I have a new blank smaller hard disk that I need to restore my Macrium Reflect image to. The saved partition is 250 GB and the new one will be 160 GB.

NOW, if you REREAD what has been POSTED and UNDERSTAND what will FURTHER need to be done to "COPY" (you got THAT link too by jaclaz, as well as info in his LAST post) you SHOULD be ok to COPY.

I did read all others' comments and visited the links and appreciate all your effort. Do you think I should just use GParted and shrink the volume from 250 GB to 40 GB, or would this cause data loss? It sounds much easier than robocopy.

RTFL (L=LINKS!) and RTFC (C=COMMENTS)... THIMK!!! (intentional misspelling).


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#19
submix8c

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Do it at your own risk. I HIGHLY recommend a GOOD Defrag tool that will "move" ALL folders/files to the FRONT of the Partition FIRST. Also if you DON'T understand the implications of what Gparted really-REALLY does you COULD hose the whole deal. (alignments, cluster sizes, etc etc etc).

Defragger Reviews -
http://donnedwards.o...ootout-all.html
Note: Better go to the Websites to get the latest version.
MAYBE JKDefrag will do it. - http://www.kessels.com/JkDefrag/

Force together
Intended for partition resizing. All movable files are moved to the beginning of the disk, even if it means fragmenting them to fill gaps that cannot be filled otherwise.

Notice the bold part? There are some that will NOT move (system-type files). You'll STILL need to be sure that you have enough "room" for the Primary's needs AND be sure that ther's sufficient for a Backup. You suggested a "40gig" as "backup" - does this IMPLY that this is the USED SPACE on your Primary Partition? You have a tendency to NEVER provide sufficient details and expect a clear-cut answer. Maybe if we tortured you? :w00t:

I PERSONALLY would try the "alternate" method against the NEW HDD first to see how it works out, for safety sake. I suppose you would want the "tools" list that you will need to add to the BartPE? I personally don't USE BartPE, but use INSTEAD LiveXP (WinBuilder) - all the tools needed would be there - just ADD the other files (Roboxxx) you need to the Build. Unhook Old HDD, Hook New HDD and TRY it. (Side note - jaclaz also contributed a couple of excellent tools to the WinBuilder.)

YES, I have used GParted to resize and was TERRIFIED when I did it (defragged FIRST). Strangely (not really), sometimes Resize of Partitions "assumes" certain Cluster Sizes (you DID know that right?).

YOU choose the route. WE choose our OWN methods. "To each their own that works for them" (I am NOT clairvoyant and can't GUARANTEE that anything YOU do will work).

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

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#20
bphlpt

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If I understand what you last said:

[...] would it be better to use GParted, shrink my existing partition to 40 GB, and create another Macrium image that can be restored to a larger or smaller partition no problem? [...]


you are coming around to what I first suggested:

A safer, more flexible way might be to shrink your partition to the minimum size that will hold the data in it before making your Macrium image. That way you can more easily restore it to any partition that will hold the data.


I really think this is indeed your best, safest, most flexible and reliable option. I also agree that it will be best to do a good, thorough, defrag and system cleanup beforehand, including moving things off the system disk that are better kept on a separate data disk, deleting temporary files that are no longer needed, etc. There are many free partitioning programs out there, including GParted. I'd be glad to tell you which one I've used in the past when I have had to shrink a system partition, but I no longer remember. It can be done successfully with no data loss. Once shrunk, Macrium Reflect should be able to do a good job for you. I have used it successfully in the past myself. One thing to be aware of, if you are not already, is that when Macrium Reflect clones a partition/disk, it really duplicates it. In other words, you can't have both the original and the restored clone both in your system at the same time, because they both will have the same "Volume ID"(??) and Windows will not be able to tell the difference between them. Sorry I'm not sure about the exact terminology, my memory is not what it used to be, but I had this problem a few years back when I tried to reuse the original disk, for other purposes, in the same system I had installed the clone. I found a utility that was able to reset the "Volume ID"(??) so all ended up good in the end.

Cheers and Regards

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#21
vipejc

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Do it at your own risk. I HIGHLY recommend a GOOD Defrag tool that will "move" ALL folders/files to the FRONT of the Partition FIRST. Also if you DON'T understand the implications of what Gparted really-REALLY does you COULD hose the whole deal. (alignments, cluster sizes, etc etc etc).

Defragger Reviews -
http://donnedwards.o...ootout-all.html
Note: Better go to the Websites to get the latest version.
MAYBE JKDefrag will do it. - http://www.kessels.com/JkDefrag/

Force together
Intended for partition resizing. All movable files are moved to the beginning of the disk, even if it means fragmenting them to fill gaps that cannot be filled otherwise.

Notice the bold part? There are some that will NOT move (system-type files). You'll STILL need to be sure that you have enough "room" for the Primary's needs AND be sure that ther's sufficient for a Backup. You suggested a "40gig" as "backup" - does this IMPLY that this is the USED SPACE on your Primary Partition? You have a tendency to NEVER provide sufficient details and expect a clear-cut answer. Maybe if we tortured you? :w00t:

I PERSONALLY would try the "alternate" method against the NEW HDD first to see how it works out, for safety sake. I suppose you would want the "tools" list that you will need to add to the BartPE? I personally don't USE BartPE, but use INSTEAD LiveXP (WinBuilder) - all the tools needed would be there - just ADD the other files (Roboxxx) you need to the Build. Unhook Old HDD, Hook New HDD and TRY it. (Side note - jaclaz also contributed a couple of excellent tools to the WinBuilder.)

YES, I have used GParted to resize and was TERRIFIED when I did it (defragged FIRST). Strangely (not really), sometimes Resize of Partitions "assumes" certain Cluster Sizes (you DID know that right?).

YOU choose the route. WE choose our OWN methods. "To each their own that works for them" (I am NOT clairvoyant and can't GUARANTEE that anything YOU do will work).


I will always provide any details asked for or I think are necessary to solve the problem. The used space on my hard disk is about 13 GB. The 40 GB is just a good amount for all the space I think I'd ever need.
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#22
vipejc

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If I understand what you last said:

[...] would it be better to use GParted, shrink my existing partition to 40 GB, and create another Macrium image that can be restored to a larger or smaller partition no problem? [...]


you are coming around to what I first suggested:

A safer, more flexible way might be to shrink your partition to the minimum size that will hold the data in it before making your Macrium image. That way you can more easily restore it to any partition that will hold the data.


I really think this is indeed your best, safest, most flexible and reliable option. I also agree that it will be best to do a good, thorough, defrag and system cleanup beforehand, including moving things off the system disk that are better kept on a separate data disk, deleting temporary files that are no longer needed, etc. There are many free partitioning programs out there, including GParted. I'd be glad to tell you which one I've used in the past when I have had to shrink a system partition, but I no longer remember. It can be done successfully with no data loss. Once shrunk, Macrium Reflect should be able to do a good job for you. I have used it successfully in the past myself. One thing to be aware of, if you are not already, is that when Macrium Reflect clones a partition/disk, it really duplicates it. In other words, you can't have both the original and the restored clone both in your system at the same time, because they both will have the same "Volume ID"(??) and Windows will not be able to tell the difference between them. Sorry I'm not sure about the exact terminology, my memory is not what it used to be, but I had this problem a few years back when I tried to reuse the original disk, for other purposes, in the same system I had installed the clone. I found a utility that was able to reset the "Volume ID"(??) so all ended up good in the end.

Cheers and Regards


The volume ID will never be an issue because I always have 1 hard disk installed in the system. The only time a hard disk gets replaced with a new one is when it starts making an odd noise. I really need to study this subject, but feel, like you, this would be the best option.
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#23
jaclaz

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The volume ID will never be an issue because I always have 1 hard disk installed in the system. The only time a hard disk gets replaced with a new one is when it starts making an odd noise. I really need to study this subject, but feel, like you, this would be the best option.


Carpenter's comparison :whistle: :
The car engine model or serial would not be a problem as I always have 1 hammer in the toolbox :w00t: . The only time when an engine gets replaced with a new one is when it starts making an odd noise. I really need to study this subject, but feel - having not yet studied/understood ANYTHING about engine replacement or mechanics in general and what is involved in them, that I can hammer the new one into place allright.

Really, you should READ the given thread:
http://www.msfn.org/...inside-windows/
and if you have doubts on what is written there, ask about those doubts (as opposed to insist in making guesses - BTW wild ones - assuming - BTW wrongly - or downright do things that you may later regret).
More or less the idea of coming to a forum and ask a question, is to get answers to the question and learn (by listening to advice and doing your own experiments, as you should not trust anyone, EVER) how to do things from people that should know more than you do on the specific matter.
Please consider how this does not in any way limit your freedom to do or not do anything (right or wrong) that crosses your mind, but you could show at least a very minimal form of respect for the time people spends in trying to explain to you the matter by actually reading and try to understand the suggestions given to you.

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jaclaz

Edited by jaclaz, 27 December 2012 - 03:17 AM.


#24
vipejc

vipejc

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The volume ID will never be an issue because I always have 1 hard disk installed in the system. The only time a hard disk gets replaced with a new one is when it starts making an odd noise. I really need to study this subject, but feel, like you, this would be the best option.


Carpenter's comparison :whistle: :
The car engine model or serial would not be a problem as I always have 1 hammer in the toolbox :w00t: . The only time when an engine gets replaced with a new one is when it starts making an odd noise. I really need to study this subject, but feel - having not yet studied/understood ANYTHING about engine replacement or mechanics in general and what is involved in them, that I can hammer the new one into place allright.

Really, you should READ the given thread:
http://www.msfn.org/...inside-windows/
and if you have doubts on what is written there, ask about those doubts (as opposed to insist in making guesses - BTW wild ones - assuming - BTW wrongly - or downright do things that you may later regret).
More or less the idea of coming to a forum and ask a question, is to get answers to the question and learn (by listening to advice and doing your own experiments, as you should not trust anyone, EVER) how to do things from people that should know more than you do on the specific matter.
Please consider how this does not in any way limit your freedom to do or not do anything (right or wrong) that crosses your mind, but you could show at least a very minimal form of respect for the time people spends in trying to explain to you the matter by actually reading and try to understand the suggestions given to you.

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jaclaz


Jaclaz, I do read everything you and others suggest. That's how I realized the best thing to do is use GParted and shrink my C: partition to, say, 160 GB. This way I can restore my Macrium image to a 250 GB hard disk or 160 GB hard disk with no issues.
There's no such thing as a dumb computer question. Each of us interprets info differently. - Me

#25
bphlpt

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[...] The used space on my hard disk is about 13 GB. The 40 GB is just a good amount for all the space I think I'd ever need.


Since your used space is only 13 GB, I would try to shrink the partition down to 20 GB to make your Macrium image from, but that's just me. You can always expand it back to 40 GB or even 160 GB after your image is made.

Cheers and Regards

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