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How best to clone the C: HDD (W98FE) ?

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#1
Jonssen

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Hi again,
Please could I have some suggestions as to how I might most simply create an exact bootable clone* of the C: drive of a W98SE machine?

1) Either within the single PC - i.e. 'C: master' cloned to 'D: (slave)'

2) And/Or, if possible, similar over a network. (W98 PC to W98 PC)


I've read a few threads here and some of the freebee downloads won't run on W98 anyway. However, something I could load from a floppy and run at DOS / Command Line level would be fine (can that network too?) (I could run from a bootable CD, but that's more of a pain...)

Thanks.


* 'clone' as in copy rather than mirror image as the source and target drives may not be identical.

Edited by Jonssen, 29 January 2013 - 01:26 AM.



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#2
jaclaz

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Yes, the terms "clone", "copy", "image" and "backup" have always - one way or the other - been mixed it is very easy to get confused when using them.

Some clarifications of the terminology (listed in order of "accuracy" or amount of info contained):
  • a clone is something that is IDENTICAL (dd-like or "forensic sound") or AS SIMILAR AS needed to be exchanged for the original <- the target of a clone is another hard disk that can be used to physically replace
  • an image is something that once restored to the original will make it IDENTICAL (dd-like or "forensic sound") or AS SIMILAR AS needed, in such a way that once restored there won't be any difference in the working of the system
  • a copy is usually an image with a number of information to rebuild a working system, not necessarily identical to the original
  • a backup is usually a copy with even less information
and of course there are "mixed" or "intermediate" approaches.

Do check these two threads:
http://www.msfn.org/...to-another-hdd/
http://www.msfn.org/...inside-windows/

Then we'll see the details/which app or methoid is more suited for your requirements.

I understand your "base" requirement, but I need to know the "final" goal, i.e. if the idea is being able to restore a corrupted operating system to a previous working "snapshot" (on same disk/partition/hardware), being able to do "bare metal" recovery, make an actual forensic sound clone/image, etc.



jaclaz

#3
PROBLEMCHYLD

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HDCopy 2.104 should work just fine.

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#4
Nomen

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I use an old copy of Norton Ghost to clone hard drives. It seems to create an exact copy of any drive I give it (at least NTFS and FAT32). But the source drive must not have any file-allocation table problems or other logical problems or it will abort the copy. I boot Ghost from a floppy and it can clone a drive at the rate of about 1 gb per minute.

Edited by Nomen, 29 January 2013 - 08:26 AM.


#5
CharlotteTheHarlot

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Probably the easiest way is to just use a disk drive manufacturer boot cd ( Seagate, WD ). When you buy a HDD in retail package they include the bootable CDROM that allows for upgrading/cloning your existing drive to the new one. The way the Seagate ( or its later Acronis ) disc always worked is requiring that one of the two drives ( source or target ) are a Seagate disc. With all the companies merging I would guess that newer versions of the CDROM handle almost every HDD ( Maxtor etc ).

Quick Google search finds this page for step by step. Here is their picture of the CDROMs ...

Spoiler

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#6
Jonssen

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Yes, the terms "clone", "copy", "image" and "backup" have always - one way or the other - been mixed it is very easy to get confused when using them.
......

I understand your "base" requirement, but I need to know the "final" goal, i.e. if the idea is being able to restore a corrupted operating system to a previous working "snapshot" (on same disk/partition/hardware), being able to do "bare metal" recovery, make an actual forensic sound clone/image, etc.
jaclaz


Hi Jaclaz,
OK, let me put it this way, I'd like to create a 'duplicate' HD (obviously it would only be a duplicate at the moment in time it's created or copied over) so that if the C: drive gets trashed, damaged, spoiled, messed up in some way I can just physically swap out the HDD with the other one (e.g. remove C:, change the duplicate HD from slave to master and stick that in as a replacement C: boot drive).

The reasoning is simply that, whilst I could create a new C: from scratch and just load backed up data, to get the updates etc. for W98 and the W98 progs on there and then (re)configure them all would likely be very time consuming. HDDs are now 'peanuts' cost so I could just set a few slaves and every so often write one as a bootable duplicate. (Totally separately I can back-up any important data on a more frequent basis according to it's importance - in fact I already do this anyway.)

I'm trying to avoid some kind of more general 'system restore' as that is generally reliant on some peripheral device or some 'restore file' held somewhere, and it's difficult to be certain just what (or how much) is actually being restored anyway.

Thanks.

#7
Jonssen

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Probably the easiest way is to just use a disk drive manufacturer boot cd ( Seagate, WD ). When you buy a HDD in retail package they include the bootable CDROM that allows for upgrading/cloning your existing drive to the new one. The way the Seagate ( or its later Acronis ) disc always worked is requiring that one of the two drives ( source or target ) are a Seagate disc. With all the companies merging I would guess that newer versions of the CDROM handle almost every HDD ( Maxtor etc ).

Quick Google search finds this page for step by step. Here is their picture of the CDROMs ...

Spoiler


Hi,
I only need 32GB PATA and I'm not sure I could even buy a new one nowadays (besides, I'm a cheapskate so wouldn't buy a retail box!) ;-)
Besides, I can use s/h 40GB HDDs readily available for a couple of quid a piece.

The Seagate (Acronis) 'freebee' on their website is WIN (XT+) not W98. (Even their 'SeaTools for DOS won't run on a simple old PC I have here - it was written quite recently - yes, system requirements met...) Hitachi don't offer a freebee, I believe. WD - didn't look yet.

Anyway, most of the HHD manufacturer 'freebee' stuff only works with their own brand drives, which is a bit limiting.

It would be even better if I could do this 'cloning' over a network (save me having to physically mess around with a functioning 'in service' PC...)

#8
ihateusernames

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* 'clone' as in copy rather than mirror image as the source and target drives may not be identical.

These are the ways I have done this in the past:

1) With two functional OS installs.
Add the second disk to the PC, boot up and use win explorer to copy everything except the Windows system directory (since some system files will be locked and can't be copied). Then restart and boot a different OS (or possibly a Live CD) so that you can now copy the remaining files.

2) Slave the disk to another PC.
Take the disk out and put it in another PC (as slave on an internal IDE interface or via USB-IDE adaptor) and use that machine to copy the files.

3) Create a sector copy or disk image.
Even if the destination disk is a different size than the source disk, this could still be the way to go if you have only one PC with one installed OS. You can write a disk image to a larger disk. From there you can either use 3rd party software to resize the partition to match the larger disk, or create an additional partition to fill the available space, or just grab the unlocked copies of system files before repartitioning and copying everything else as normal.

In any case, you might want to unhide all files first to make sure you don't miss something:
ATTRIB C:\*.* -h -r -s /S

Also should mention that you may need to use the SYS command to make the second disk bootable (unless it was done already during format), as well as using FDISK to set the partition "active." I don't recall if you can run FDISK from within win98, if not you would have to boot to a DOS prompt or use a sector editor to set the partition "active" (It is literally one bit in the partition table)

Edited by ihateusernames, 31 January 2013 - 01:24 AM.


#9
CharlotteTheHarlot

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I only need 32GB PATA and I'm not sure I could even buy a new one nowadays (besides, I'm a cheapskate so wouldn't buy a retail box!) ;-)
Besides, I can use s/h 40GB HDDs readily available for a couple of quid a piece.

The Seagate (Acronis) 'freebee' on their website is WIN (XT+) not W98. (Even their 'SeaTools for DOS won't run on a simple old PC I have here - it was written quite recently - yes, system requirements met...) Hitachi don't offer a freebee, I believe. WD - didn't look yet.

Anyway, most of the HHD manufacturer 'freebee' stuff only works with their own brand drives, which is a bit limiting.

It would be even better if I could do this 'cloning' over a network (save me having to physically mess around with a functioning 'in service' PC...)

The key word is "bootable" CDROM. It does not have anything to do with the OS that is in place on your system. The cloning is performed outside of Windows, the bootable CDROM has its own OS that runs. Your computer BIOS needs to supply the ability to boot from the optical drive though.

If either of your two HDDs ( source and target ) are Seagate, their CDROM will work. I am not sure if you explained it, but what are the two drives?

What these discs really are is just a convenient method of copying a HDD plus some partition adjustment functions used when the two drives are not identical sized. They are designed for the HDD customer that simply upgrades their existing disk to a new one. But "new" is not absolutely necessary. These discs have been around for many years and come in many versions. I didn't look, but I bet the bootable CDROMs are available at eBay or Amazon for cheap.

Yes, you can download the ISO of the boot latest CDROM, but it is not simple as just getting the physical one from someone, that is why I showed the photo. If you cannot borrow one ( or will not buy a retail HDD with one included ) then this option obviously will not be possible for you.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#10
jaclaz

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So, all in all you need a "cloning app" but not necessarily a "forensic sound" one.
And it needs to be able to run in Dos (and Win9x/Me).
And it should be able to - periodically - synchronize the "clone" to the running system (otherwise you would soon find yourself with an "outdated" emergency solution.

Basically, you are describing XXCOPY:
http://www.xxcopy.com/index.htm
See:
http://www.williamaf...CloningaHDD.php

A nice thingy that you may also want to experiment with is Partition Logic:
http://partitionlogic.org.uk/index.php

it should run on *any* system:
http://partitionlogi...about/index.php
with the exception of some SATA disks/contollers, which are not involved in your case.

jaclaz

#11
submix8c

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Get this xxcopy and "other items"(ref. post #10 suggestion) -
http://www.msfn.org/...te-nag-message/
Here's some "copying" info, which is what it sounds like you want (reference only) -
http://www.msfn.org/...-same-computer/

Round-about way (ensures no mistakes) -
1 - Get 7-Zip and install it (google for it).
2 - Create a folder on the C-drive (e.g. C:\XXCOPY)
3 - Unzip with 7-Zip the package downloaded in second link into XXCOPY folder and follow those instructions.
4 - Double-click the XXCOPY.EXE after following instructions and do what it says (take defaults).
* XXCopy 32-bit is now installed. NOTE! Only runs under Windows.
5 - Format a Floppy with "Copy system files" selected.
6 - Copy FDISK and Format to it.
7 - Copy XXCOPY16 to it from the XXCOPY folder and remove Floppy.
8 - Shut down and replace Old Drive with New Drive as appropriate (note the JUMPERS).
9 - Put Floppy back in and ensure BIOS boots to it FIRST when Turned Back On.
10 - FDISK the New drive as appropriate, ensuring First Partition (new C-drive) is set Active.
11 - Reboot and run Run "FDISK /MBR" to install Boot Code. <---MISSED THIS STEP
11a - Reboot and Format Partition(s) as appropriate.
* NOTE: Give a Label of something recognizable as NEW_C (or something)
12 - Shut down and hook up Both Drives as appropriate (note the JUMPERS and position on CABLES).
* NOTE: Hook OLD as Primary and NEW as Secondary!
13 - Turn Back On and DOUBLE-CHECK Drive Letters by "FDISK" and "Display Partitions"
* NOTE: Write down WHICH is WHICH (Old C-Drive letter and Drive Letter of "NEW_C")
14 - Run XXCOPY16 to CLONE the OLD Partition to NEW Partition based on #13 Letters
15 - Shut Down, Remove Floppy, Remove Old HDD, Hook New HDD as Primary.
Done!

Notes:
1 -Only ONE File should be "locked" (see post#8) even when Windows is running and that's "WIN386.SWP" (the Paging File).
2 - Knowing that, you COULD just use XXCOPY while running and copy EVERYTHING except THAT file, i.e. do EVERYTHING under Windows. ;)

HTH (did I miss anything, guys?)

Edit -
After rechecking Procedure
a - Inserted the MBR part as Step#11
b - Changed Old Step#11 and designated as Step#11a
Also note the Procedure is roughly the same as Jaclaz' Link except using 16-bit DOS Floppy. This procedure will be a one-time CLONE operation since the OS is not running at the time. The WIN386.SWP file will ALSO be copied since the OS is NOT running (i.e. "not locked". It will speed the CLONE process by DELETING that file BEFORE Cloning because it will be Rebuilt on Next Boot.
A:\>del c:\windows\win386.swp
Note that this CAN'T be done while Windows is running.
ADDITIONALLY, I failed to note that the Procedure is 16-BIT DOS and XXCOPY16 has LIMITATIONS (ref the link Jaclaz gave at the "Q and A" section). BE AWARE!

THEREFORE, the above method MAY be unsuitable. BUT, repeating the CLONE (as performed in the link) seems to indicate ACTIVELY USED files may need to be "Re-Cloned", so it MAY be recommended to Shut Down any Active Processes -OR do it in Safe Mode (?) -AND- do NOT do anything until the CLONE process is completed.

Edited by submix8c, 01 February 2013 - 09:29 AM.

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#12
jaclaz

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@submix8
You missed the references I gave.
http://www.williamaf...CloningaHDD.php
Which, specifically, leads to here:
http://www.xxcopy.com/xxcopy10.htm
which provides the EXACT steps needed (if doing everything through XXCOPY) in the words of the Author of the tool himself.

What I was additionally hinting is that by using first Partition Logic (or other suitable tool) to do a "dd-like" copy of the old hard disk to the new one, more than a few of the steps can be avoided, if you prefer all the difficulties are for "first run" or "first clone" of XXCOPY, once you have a suitable target you can:

You may run the /CLONE command as many times as you like:

XXCOPY C:\ D:\ /CLONE


jaclaz

#13
submix8c

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;)
Must be because...
Spoiler

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

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#14
Jonssen

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Hi, Noting what everyone's written with thanks and slowly working my way through... (may take a little while)

Can any of these suggestions work over a network?

Thanks.

Edited by Jonssen, 31 January 2013 - 10:32 PM.


#15
submix8c

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(system dropped...)

Please read my edited post. Networked appears to be out of the question even with 16-bit because you'd still need to interconnect and "share" the Source HDD. You could probably set up DOS-based IP's but the "share" may or may not be able to be done. MAYBE a Running Windows on Source (to create a Share) then use DOS "net use" on Target? :unsure:

You would have to already have a Running OS on both ends to use XXCOPY (32-bit), otherwise...

AFAIK, only Commercial Software (e.g. Symantec Ghost) is able to do that in DOS.

Anyone else see a way to do it Networked (LAN)?

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#16
dencorso

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1) Either within the single PC - i.e. 'C: master' cloned to 'D: (slave)'

XXCOPY 2.96.8 - xxfw2968.zip can do it from a running 98SE system, and the copy will boot OK usually.

2) And/Or, if possible, similar over a network. (W98 PC to W98 PC)

XXCOPY 2.96.8 can do it from a running 98SE system, to another drive shared over the network, and the copy will usually still be able to boot OK the original (=source) machine, if brought to it.

#17
jaclaz

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XXCOPY 2.96.8 can do it from a running 98SE system, to another drive shared over the network, and the copy will usually still be able to boot OK the original (=source) machine, if brought to it.

BUT the target drive will need to exist beforehand, i.e. the disk needs to be partitioned and formatted before, in order to have a drive that can be network connected.
Again all the issues are in preparing the "base" and/or creating "first" clone, once done that everything is fine.

jaclaz

#18
cdoublejj

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Norton ghost runs in dos and has bootable floppy but, is not free. There are other live boot and bootable software that contain Norton ghost. Norton ghost can also make images and do drive to drive ghosting.

#19
jaclaz

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There are other live boot and bootable software that contain Norton ghost.

Which are either non-free as well or warez :ph34r: .

Norton ghost can also make images and do drive to drive ghosting.

As well as a number of other tools, both Commercial and Free/Open Source.
A list is given here:
http://www.msfn.org/...aging-software/

jaclaz




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