[SIW2]

I have only posted once or twice before on this forum.

Very disappointed to see Windows 8 Deeper Impressions thread has been closed.

http://www.msfn.org/.../page__st__2080

It might appear to cover a range of topics, but it is in fact consistent with the concept of the thread.

It is how creative minds work. Those from an artistic/creative background will be it tune with it.

It is a popular thread - the most interesting one on this forum - possibly one of the most interesting anywhere on the internet.

Might I suggest the thread continue - perhaps under a different title - e.g. Microsoft's Prospects and if necessary in a different section, e.g. General Discussion.

It seems to me that might be a satisfactory solution.

Many thanks

This post has been edited by SIW2: 25 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

[CoffeeFiend]

SIW2, on 25 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Very disappointed to see Windows 8 Deeper Impressions thread has been closed.

Same here

SIW2, on 25 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

It might appear to cover a range of topics, but it is in fact consistent with the concept of the thread.

It is how creative minds work. Those from an artistic/creative background will be it tune with it.

It is a popular thread - the most interesting one on this forum - possibly one of the most interesting anywhere on the internet.

Fully agreed on everything!

SIW2, on 25 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Might I suggest the thread continue - perhaps under a different title - e.g. Microsoft's Prospects and if necessary in a different section, e.g. General Discussion.

That would have been a better solution in my opinion too.

[bphlpt]

Well, the reason given for the closure fits why other threads in the past have been moved and/or renamed. The staff is right that the thread veered extremely widely from its original purpose of giving feedback about specific actions, behaviors, and performance issues of Win8, to what should probably have been renamed to something like - "What has MS done lately?" - as the kindest phrasing I could come up with. And the thread should have been moved into a non-technical section such as General Discussion. I would think that could still be done. But if it is decided not to do that, then there doesn't seem to be any reason why such a thread could not be created, and the discussion continued where the old one left off. The staff might then be willing to edit the final post to include a link to the new thread. And if the staff ever changes its mind, then I believe that the threads could still be merged at a later date. Just my two cents.

Cheers and Regards

This post has been edited by bphlpt: 25 February 2013 - 05:49 PM

[Tripredacus]

The topic has been moved to General Discussion and re-opened. A link-back is still available in the Windows 8 section.

[JorgeA]

Tripredacus, on 25 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

The topic has been moved to General Discussion and re-opened. A link-back is still available in the Windows 8 section.

Thank you!

--JorgeA

[SIW2]

Thank you Tripredacus. That is great news.

[xpclient]

Here's what I think. We are all deeply butthurt by Windows 8. It's an insult to desktop Windows. Microsoft is showing no signs of turning back to their less evil non-cheating self. They have no plans to stop oversimplifying for grandma and destroying existing features. So the Deeper Impressions thread turned into a ground for raging and ranting but there is only so much you can say about a once-good company which completely stopped listening to its users and turned evil. So I guess it was a timely decision to move the thread into a less conspicuous section of the forum.

[ciHnoN]

This: http://www.foolsdesi...ic.php?f=4&t=31 ...that's all folks!

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

Jeez, I go away for a few hours and all he!! breaks loose! Trying now to get up to speed on what happened, but there is very little hard information from the moderators that I can even find.

First of all, I am not a mod here so I am not privy to the backchannel discussion that has occurred. It would be nice if they would explain What problem has been brought to their attention and by who? Informing the members helps to prevent incorrect speculation.

One big question is this: Is there external pressure being applied on MSFN or is this completely an in-house matter? The answer is key to journalistic integrity and as it stands I see no way to answer it.

Another item is this: What is this slavish paradigm of trying to keep all threads completely on-topic ( whatever that means )? I have said before that doing this 99% makes sense with those targeted, highly focused specific discussion threads, but not all. Why this is so weird is precisely because the name of the thread "Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions" is not one of those focused topics. Furthermore, is "on-topic" defined by the thread OP? If so, why can't Jorge simple modify the thread title to "Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions" adding a subtitle of "... and related controversy and rants" ( or similar ) to satisfy this urge to stay "on-topic". This begs the question however, if that alone is not sufficient, then something larger must be afoot, correct?

It makes absolutely no sense at all for that thread to be anywhere else except for in the Windows 8 forum. None! It contains tons of information from the Beta to present. And we are left with the odd case where "First Impressions" is still in the original location. Furthermore, that is a very active thread in both Views and Posts. I cannot see the detailed statistics but it must rank up there in the top ten most active. This generates real traffic and site views which aids Google page-rank, and it is feeding lots of topical red meat into Google subject searches. This is not normally considered a bad thing. So what possible reason justifies burying such a thread?

Obviously there is activity taking place behind the scenes. Many boards are administered in quasi-democratic fashion ( perhaps weighting votes from moderators according to seniority or privilege ), so: Was there some kind of voting going on? Maybe you can just inform us if '3 out of 5 moderators wanted it closed' or whatever. Or much more troubling, Is there a rogue moderator ( or sponsoring member or whatever ) that is causing needless trouble and controversy?

This is Xper's forum so he ultimately decides what goes, so these are obviously just friendly questions and suggestions. But I sure wish Xper would just state here what his thinking is on this matter. After all, ultimately it is his reputation that can suffer, either from incorrect speculation because of the lack of information given, or when there is absolutely needless drama from his "staff" causing trouble in the first place.

To Xper, I'm not sure it has ever been discussed here, and I might regret even bringing this up, but I think the Moderators and supervisors really should disclose their affiliation ( if any ) to Microsoft. IMHO, this is an incredibly pertinent issue ( and it is not only about Microsoft, because if threads were bashing Firefox or Apple, then affiliation with those companies would also be relevant ). For example, If Microsoft employees were allowed to moderate threads that criticize Microsoft, that would be an undeniable conflict of interest, with respect to the concept of journalism ( the general definition, but not necessarily the modern "free press" ). Again, it is your forum, but speaking for myself I would definitely be disapproving of any moderators who didn't recuse themselves from an obvious conflict of interest. It would really offend me because it tells me they are loyal first to their real employer rather than my board, and I could never really trust such a person.

But again, here I am wildly speculating, and it is precisely because of the lack of information! I hope that Xper steps in and clarifies whether this is a mountain or a mole hill. Especially in this day and age where other sites will pounce on it if Microsoft is seen as influencing free speech. You will actually be doing Microsoft a favor by clearing up the controversy.

EDIT: typo

This post has been edited by CharlotteTheHarlot: 26 February 2013 - 09:30 AM

[Tripredacus]

ciHnoN, on 26 February 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

This: http://www.foolsdesi...ic.php?f=4&t=31 ...that's all folks!

I deleted your duplicate post.

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 26 February 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

It makes absolutely no sense at all for that thread to be anywhere else except for in the Windows 8 forum. None! It contains tons of information from the Beta to present.

Many boards are administered in quasi-democratic fashion ( perhaps weighting votes from moderators according to seniority or privilege ), so: Was there some kind of voting going on? Maybe you can just inform us if '3 out of 5 moderators wanted it closed' or whatever.

The unfortunate nature of the thread going so off topic and become more generalised it the reason it was moved to General Discussion. Originally the idea was to put it in Technology News but users expressed that putting it so low on the forum index would decrease its views. I suppose that is possible, but either way, you could say it has been upgraded... GD is fairly unused. I wish there was an easy way to split the topic so to keep the original "impressions" part separate from the "news and reaction" posts from later on.

The topic has been brought up multiple times and was put up to a vote. There wasn't any specific "we must do this" type thing, more of a "what should we do with this thread." I do not think I should tell you exactly what the vote results were, but I can tell you that no one chose to just close it.

[CharlotteTheHarlot]

Tripredacus, on 26 February 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

The unfortunate nature of the thread going so off topic and become more generalised it the reason it was moved to General Discussion. Originally the idea was to put it in Technology News but users expressed that putting it so low on the forum index would decrease its views. I suppose that is possible, but either way, you could say it has been upgraded... GD is fairly unused. I wish there was an easy way to split the topic so to keep the original "impressions" part separate from the "news and reaction" posts from later on.

The topic has been brought up multiple times and was put up to a vote. There wasn't any specific "we must do this" type thing, more of a "what should we do with this thread." I do not think I should tell you exactly what the vote results were, but I can tell you that no one chose to just close it.

Thanks for the answers, but you skipped some stuff ...

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 26 February 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Another item is this: What is this slavish paradigm of trying to keep all threads completely on-topic ( whatever that means )? I have said before that doing this 99% makes sense with those targeted, highly focused specific discussion threads, but not all. Why this is so weird is precisely because the name of the thread "Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions" is not one of those focused topics. Furthermore, is "on-topic" defined by the thread OP? If so, why can't Jorge simple modify the thread title to "Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions" adding a subtitle of "... and related controversy and rants" ( or similar ) to satisfy this urge to stay "on-topic". This begs the question however, if that alone is not sufficient, then something larger must be afoot, correct?

It makes absolutely no sense at all for that thread to be anywhere else except for in the Windows 8 forum. None! It contains tons of information from the Beta to present. And we are left with the odd case where "First Impressions" is still in the original location. Furthermore, that is a very active thread in both Views and Posts. I cannot see the detailed statistics but it must rank up there in the top ten most active. This generates real traffic and site views which aids Google page-rank, and it is feeding lots of topical red meat into Google subject searches. This is not normally considered a bad thing. So what possible reason justifies burying such a thread?

You could spend a lifetime searching and moving threads around that are off-topic. And the forum would suffer by being stained with MOVED labels on every thread title. I cannot believe that this is something that y'all would waste any time on. It is all downside, nothing positive. That thread is extremely active and yet for some reason moderators are discussing "We must do something about it"? This defies credibility. And frankly it mirrors the Microsoft logic of "Windows 7 is doing great, let's destroy it".

So what is "on-topic"? Who decides? The original thread-starter? As I asked, what if Jorge just edits the name to "Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions" adding a subtitle of "... and related controversy and rants". Then the title would perfectly match the content. So then it goes back to where it was?

Tripredacus, because I am unclear of what you said, Are you telling us there is no influence from Microsoft here? Another question is Has a Microsoft employee who is a moderator or supervisor caused this problem? I think you are saying no, but Are you even in a position to know the answer to this?

EDIT: typo

This post has been edited by CharlotteTheHarlot: 26 February 2013 - 10:12 AM

[submix8c]

Just an FYI in case nobody noticed Tripredacus' OS -
http://technet.micro...y/jj134246.aspx

[5eraph]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 26 February 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

It would be nice if they would explain What problem has been brought to their attention and by who? Informing the members helps to prevent incorrect speculation.

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 26 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Thanks for the answers, but you skipped some stuff ...

In fairness, there's a rule concerning this:

Quote

8. Has the thread you started or participated in been moved, closed or deleted? Check with the forum moderator via PM. Under no circumstances start threads asking why other threads were moderated. Forum moderation is not up for public debate, and such threads will be deleted and the thread starter warned. MSFN reserves the right to edit, delete or move posts made on this site.

[Tripredacus]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 26 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

So what is "on-topic"? Who decides? The original thread-starter? As I asked, what if Jorge just edits the name to "Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions" adding a subtitle of "... and related controversy and rants". Then the title would perfectly match the content. So then it goes back to where it was?

Tripredacus, because I am unclear of what you said, Are you telling us there is no influence from Microsoft here? Another question is Has a Microsoft employee who is a moderator or supervisor caused this problem? I think you are saying no, but Are you even in a position to know the answer to this?

The topic title should probably stay the same, since most people recognize it.

No Microsoft employee has caused this problem.

submix8c, on 26 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Just an FYI in case nobody noticed Tripredacus' OS -
http://technet.micro...y/jj134246.aspx

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Server 2012 is just the newest OS I have installed on a computer I use at work. I could go back to being Vista Business x86.

[HalloweenDocument12]

5eraph, on 26 February 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Quote

8. Has the thread you started or participated in been moved, closed or deleted? Check with the forum moderator via PM. Under no circumstances start threads asking why other threads were moderated. Forum moderation is not up for public debate, and such threads will be deleted and the thread starter warned. MSFN reserves the right to edit, delete or move posts made on this site.

In my experience, which is over 15 years of participating on Internet forums, "Rule 8" does far more harm than good to both sides of the discussion. I understand why it is there--to give site administration an out when unilateral decisions must be made--but it doesn't work out at all when half the active forum is banned due to "because I said so" which happens often enough for me to make a post like this. There's nothing worse for an Internet forum than to have an atmosphere where anything can be deleted at any time for non-specific reasons, which is what CharlotteTheHarlot is getting at, and after it happens the first time, followups are generally quick to follow, experience speaking. Transparency helps both sides because in addition to shaping the discussion in a meaningful way, having to explain administrative action enforces consistency in doing so.

A pre-counterargument to potential counterarguments: I am not asserting free speech, rights, or any other privileges beyond what is granted beyond my de facto ability to post on the site. I do not demand or expect a response, let alone one that answers raised concerns to my satisfaction.

This post has been edited by HalloweenDocument12: 26 February 2013 - 11:52 AM

[bphlpt]

The Deeper Impressions thread seems quite unique for MSFN, as I don't think anyone can argue. Having members that have specifically stated that they joined for the sole purpose to participate in the thread backs that opinion up. I also believe that it has been getting special privilege in a way for quite a while since I'm not aware of another thread here where as much "bashing" and making fun of any company has gone on for this long without moderator interference. That is not to say that the criticisms leveled against MS have no merit. I, too, do not care for Win 8 in general and I think that MS has made some very bad decisions for questionable motives that seem doomed for failure due to their refusal to listen to their customer base. But as much as many of the thread participants have derided Neowin and certain "journalists" as being MS fanboys, it almost seems that the Deeper Impressions thread became the opposite, or "anti-MS", and much, much broader in scope than just Window 8. As such, I can't agree that "It makes absolutely no sense at all for that thread to be anywhere else except for in the Windows 8 forum", nor can I agree that it should stay in any part of any of the technical subforums. That would be too limiting. I also don't understand the argument that moving the thread is "burying" it, since as Tripredacus points out it is now located slightly higher on the main page in a less crowed subforum. And a redirect was left where it used to be, so what's the problem? Besides which, if you utilize the http://www.msfn.org/...arch_app=forums link to enter the forum, as I do and I think many others do, it doesn't matter where the thread is located. For consistency, the "First Impressions" thread could be moved to the General Discussion area as well to keep the two threads together, if that would make everybody happy.

I also don't think it is valid to say that if they can move the thread, the next thing they'll be doing is deleting posts on a whim. To my knowledge, there have been no posts at all deleted in the Deeper Impressions thread, and the fear that there will be is unfounded. Sure it could happen, and I could be killed by a falling meteorite tomorrow. But the likelihood of either happening is so small that discussing the potential seems to me to be trying to needlessly stir up fear, uncertainty and doubt. That's not to say that I, and I'm sure many others, won't be keeping a close eye on things, and if it does happen then the discussion will justifiably change.

But I agree that the closure--move--reopen could have been handled better. For one, it should have happened a long time ago. And second, it just should have been moved without the closure. But those are board internal matters. We can all respectfully voice our opinion and privately ask for clarification and reconsideration. Open communication is a very good thing, and it helps everyone if it is clear why decisions were made. But too much public arguing and complaining about how the board is run, and open accusations about the staff's motives, create a caustic atmosphere that doesn't help anyone.

I have seen criticism of MSFN that it isn't up to date and the main page doesn't always have current news. Personally, I don't care. I know of no free board that is staffed with unpaid volunteers that can legitimately claim to be all things to everyone. I don't use MSFN for "news" - I use it for technical issue solving, learning new technical tricks, and learning about software apps that I had not been exposed to before. Anything else is pure gravy.

I think the Deeper Impressions thread should remain, and I hope it remains active and vibrant. It's a fun read. But I think the criticism of the MSFN staff is overblown and misplaced. I hope I'm not wrong about that.

Full disclosure: I am not, nor have I ever been, an employee of MS or of any other software company. (Though Bill Gates and I are the same age - LOL) All the opinions expressed by me are my own and have not been coerced by anyone by any means.

Cheers and Regards

Edit - typo

This post has been edited by bphlpt: 26 February 2013 - 12:36 PM

[dencorso]

CharlotteTheHarlot, on 26 February 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

One big question is this: Is there external pressure being applied on MSFN or is this completely an in-house matter? The answer is key to journalistic integrity and as it stands I see no way to answer it.

This is and has been, from the start, completely an in-house matter. Rest assured of that. MSFN remains an independent entity, as it has always been, from the start.

Now, CharlotteTheHarlot, the thread has been moved, it's now located in a place where it has the same or even more visibility than before, no content or info was lost and it remains available for everybody. Let's leave it at that.

This thread I'm posting in right now has really no reason to continue. The problem is solved.