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Its kinda hot today...

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18 replies to this topic

#1
Tripredacus

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I know that "hot" is subjective, I certainly don't feel hot, warm maybe. Its not intolerable. But we have to understand that our computers may be less tolerable to temperatures as we are.

 

Here I was, sitting down to a relaxing game of Civ 5 when my screen goes black. Somewhere, in the background of ALT-TABs lies some message relating to the video driver having a problem. I sat thinking... well it is kinda warm today, I don't think I feel up to playing anything that requires more thought. Then I realise, well, maybe my computer is hot too?

 

computerhot_zps6ef7a3ce.jpg

 

So I decide to take a break, while the words of a complete stranger from a parking lot once told me echoes in my head:

 

 

 

Yeah, just a bunch of fans blowing hot air around...

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#2
5eraph

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Umm, yeah...  I'd say you're running a bit high.  My hard discs never reach 37C with 20C ambient.  I'd guess you have your air conditioning turned off, or you're in a hot location (>30C) that isn't climate controlled.



#3
jaclaz

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IMHO those hard disk temps are well within the "red alarm" zone :ph34r:

 

Particularly, that old Maxtor  L080L4 is "preoccupying", besides the exceptionally high value you have, that seems like an old 80 Gb model that AFAICR used NOT to get "hot".

 

jaclaz



#4
tomasz86

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My HDDs run between 50-60C and this is when the case is opened :ph34r:
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#5
jaclaz

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A "normal" temperature (as I see it) is around 45°.

Anything higher (still IMHO) represents a risk.

A PC with the case opened (generally speaking and provided that the case cooling was designed properly) will have MUCH WORSE cooling of the internal components compared with it with the case closed.

jaclaz

#6
tomasz86

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It was 65C with case closed. That's why I decided to leave it open -_-

 

Three of those HDDs are 15k rpm SAS drives so they are supposed to endure higher temperature better (at least I hope so...). The other one is Samsung F3 500GB and its temperature variates between 45-55C. I know it's bad but can't really do anything about it :(


Edited by tomasz86, 15 July 2013 - 05:37 AM.

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#7
jaclaz

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15 K RPM (SAS or not) tend to generate a lot more heat.

As said 45° is the "good" value that I find acceptable for standard hard disks.
The (now becoming obsolete) but still "only meaningful" research published by google did find a relationship between too high (and too low) hard disk temperature and failure rate.

The VERY MAX temperature acceptable for disk drives is either 55° or 60°:
http://www.ghacks.ne...u-need-to-know/
http://knowledge.sea...?language=en_US

As an example a Seagate Cheetah 15K may work up to 68° BUT with a SERIOUS increase of AFR or decrease of MTBF (or if you prefer decrease of life).

Sometimes RTFM actually helps in deciding whether it is convenient to add a couple 5 US$ each fans.... :whistle:
http://www.seagate.c.../100516226e.pdf
 

6.2 Reliability and service
You can enhance the reliability of Cheetah disk drives by ensuring that  the drive receives adequate cooling.
Section 7.0 provides temperature measurements and other information that may be used to enhance the ser-
vice life of the drive. Section 11.2 provides recommended air-flow information.

6.2.1 Annualized Failrue Rate (AFR) and Mean time between failure (MTBF)
These drives shall achieve an AFR of 0.55% (MTBF of 1,600,000 hours) when operated in an environment that
ensures the HDA case temperatures do not exceed the values specified in Section 7.4.
Operation at case temperatures outside the specifications in Section 7.4 may increase the AFR (decrease the
MTBF). AFR and MTBF statistics are population statistics that are not relevant to individual units.

 

The actual "trip" switch (see point 6.2.5) is set to MAX 68°, which represents the VERY LIMIT and should never be reached or neared, let alone for sustained amounts of time.

 

 

7.4.1 Temperature
a. Operating
The maximum allowable continuous or sustained HDA case temperature for the rated Annualized Failure
Rate (AFR) is 122°F (50°C) The maximum allowable HDA case temperature is 60°C. Occasional excur-
sions of HDA case temperatures above 122°F (50°C) or below 41°F (5°C) may occur without impact to the
specified AFR. Continual or sustained operation at HDA case temperatures outside these limits may
degrade AFR.
Provided the HDA case temperatures limits are met, the drive meets all specifications over a 41°F to 131°F
(5°C to 55°C) drive ambient temperature range with a maximum temperature gradient of 86°F (30°C) per
hour. Air flow may be needed in the drive enclosure to keep within this range (see Section 8.3). Operation
at HDA case temperatures outside this range may adversely affect the drives ability to meet specifications.
To confirm that the required cooling for the electronics and HDA case is provided, place the drive in its final
mechanical configuration, perform random write/read operations and measure the HDA case temperature
after it has stabilized.

 

We (highly specialized technicians :unsure:) use some highly technical jargon to describe the situation you just represented: "asking for troubles". :w00t:

 

 

jaclaz


Edited by jaclaz, 15 July 2013 - 06:14 AM.


#8
Tripredacus

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In my "case", I don't think adding any extra fans will make any difference. It already has 5 internal fans, not counting the one on the CPU or video card. I am using the Antec P182 which is the same as this:

http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=6

Except I got the gunmetal one and not the one with the stainless steel outsides. A flash demo of the cooling paths can be seen here:

http://www.antec.com...p182_flash.html

 

We are getting a heat wave this week and it started yesterday. For us, anyways, 90 degrees F is like the rare upper temperature limit we ever experience. And having a lake nearby, we also get some high humidity. Yesterday we had about 90% humidity. I would imagine that humidity effects computers as well?

 

And no, there is no air conditioning! Maybe someday I can get it... we'll have to see how much it costs.


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#9
jaclaz

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In my "case", I don't think adding any extra fans will make any difference. It already has 5 internal fans, not counting the one on the CPU or video card. I am using the Antec P182 which is the same as this:

http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=6

Except I got the gunmetal one and not the one with the stainless steel outsides. A flash demo of the cooling paths can be seen here:

http://www.antec.com...p182_flash.html

 

We are getting a heat wave this week and it started yesterday. For us, anyways, 90 degrees F is like the rare upper temperature limit we ever experience. And having a lake nearby, we also get some high humidity. Yesterday we had about 90% humidity. I would imagine that humidity effects computers as well?

 

And no, there is no air conditioning! Maybe someday I can get it... we'll have to see how much it costs.

Look, I don't want to seem more grumpy that usual :ph34r:, but a few fundamental Laws of Thermodynamics, discovered and verified by some 150 years or more say that it is possible with room temperature at 32° C (the same as your 90° F) to have anything contained in it at a temperature as low as 32°, by adequate means of heat transmission/exchange.

 

With the room at 32° or anyway well below 40° a well suited cooling system should have no issues in keeping the hard disk around 45° (and BTW your two WDC drives are a practical example that this can be and is achieved).

 

The other two (Maxtor) drives are (you choose) either overheating or poorly cooled.

 

jaclaz



#10
puntoMX

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That video card, is it active cooled? 1.25v (stock voltage) on a HD4650/4670 heats the system up nicely with it's 65-70W TDP, you could loose some 40W of heat there with a new card (with teh same graphics power) or get a 85W TDP card that has way more balls and won't be at 101%+ GPU when you play a game ;). (5770/6770/7770/7790 cards are cheap on ebay).

 

I would take out that 80GB 65ºC out too (VM-ware test drives or not, or what ever you use it for).



#11
Tripredacus

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Well I just got 2 other SATA HDDs that I could use to replace the two Maxtors. I'll have to figure out what is on those drives. If they are both my storage drives it would be great. Otherwise if they have a program on them, if I did a disk clone I could end up with different drive letters which would be a pain. I will look at getting a different video card as well.

 

Oddly enough, the AC guy is stopping by today. :whistle:


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#12
5eraph

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Think I may be experiencing the same heatwave with heat indexes of 105°F, Tripredacus.  I'm about two miles from the Detroit river and have similar humidity as well.  Hot in the shade at 92°F.



#13
Tripredacus

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Well don't I feel silly. That 6L020J1 is actually a 20GB drive... I know what happened and why I thought it was a 120GB. The 120GB drive was put in my Win98 PC. This 20GB drive is from when my old computer had XP on it. There is little I actually use on it anymore and could probably be removed as the only thing I use is portable. That leaves me with the 80GB drive which I can clone to the WD SATA drive I got today.

 

So hopefully Windows won't re-arrange the drive letters on the clone since the 80GB has 2 partitions on it.


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#14
jaclaz

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Trip, you need to make up your mind.

A clone is EITHER a clone or is it not.

If it is a clone, it is - by definition - NOT distinguishable from the original.

A clone (unless it is connected/mounted at the same time as the original and the Mount Manager rewrites the Disk Signature to avoid conflicts) will NOT have drive letters changed.

 

jaclaz



#15
CharlotteTheHarlot

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In my "case", I don't think adding any extra fans will make any difference. It already has 5 internal fans, not counting the one on the CPU or video card. I am using the Antec P182 which is the same as this:
http://www.antec.com/product.php?id=6
Except I got the gunmetal one and not the one with the stainless steel outsides. A flash demo of the cooling paths can be seen here:
http://www.antec.com...p182_flash.html
 
We are getting a heat wave this week and it started yesterday. For us, anyways, 90 degrees F is like the rare upper temperature limit we ever experience. And having a lake nearby, we also get some high humidity. Yesterday we had about 90% humidity. I would imagine that humidity effects computers as well?
 
And no, there is no air conditioning! Maybe someday I can get it... we'll have to see how much it costs.


Adding fans for cooler temps ... maybe, may not.

Fortunately it is a simple thing to test! Open the case, run the system, note the temps, now just rig a spare fan ( to an old PS if necessary ) and hold it so it blows air directly over and under the HDD and watch the temps. NOTE: as obvious as this sounds, beware of the spinning fan blades with both your fingers and wires in the case!

For real hot things like chips you get several variables you can play around with: thermal paste, heat sink, fan. But for packaged components like a disk drive you only got one, air flow. Convection depends on moving air to transfer heat from a heat sink ( which in the case of a HDD is the entire surface area ). And it really requires just a little air movement to work well, indeed you'll hit diminishing returns eventually with more and more fans, all the gain is on the low end of the curve, moving from no air-flow to some air-flow is a big jump.

So when you say adding fans might not help you might be right, but most likely there is not continuous good airflow over both sides of the HDD package, the metal top and the PCB bottom. Or perhaps an unusual circumstance where warm air is being blown right over the HDD, it can happen from a ribbon cable having moved and diverting air movement.

A 120mm fan can perfectly "cool" ( well, increase convection on ) three internal HDD's, and a fourth can be fitted in a pinch.

BTW, we are also in a heatwave, 90 degrees F with about 100% humidity for nearly 3 weeks now. No HDD or any other temp problems though.

... Let him who hath understanding reckon the Number Of The Beast ...


#16
Tripredacus

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Trip, you need to make up your mind.

A clone is EITHER a clone or is it not.

If it is a clone, it is - by definition - NOT distinguishable from the original.

A clone (unless it is connected/mounted at the same time as the original and the Mount Manager rewrites the Disk Signature to avoid conflicts) will NOT have drive letters changed.

 

jaclaz

 

I'm only wondering because if I replace both drives, going from IDE to SATA, Windows could potentially change the drive letters couldn't it? Even if I did clone the IDE drive to SATA and everything would be the same, Windows still would know it was a new disk and enumerate it that first time...


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#17
monroe

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Tripredacus ... don't have anything to offer about the heat situation but in your first post I learned about two programs I had never heard of ... from your pictures ... TechPowerUp GPU-Z v0.7.2 and CPUID HWMonitor. I have a Pentium M (1.6) IBM Thinkpad with XP Pro but I don't get all the information that you get ... I guess you have more sensors to detect more readings. Still glad to have found out about these two software programs.

...



#18
jaclaz

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I'm only wondering because if I replace both drives, going from IDE to SATA, Windows could potentially change the drive letters couldn't it? Even if I did clone the IDE drive to SATA and everything would be the same, Windows still would know it was a new disk and enumerate it that first time...

NO.

Drive letter assignment is ONLY linked to:

  1. Disk Signature
  2. Offset of the volume on the disk

and NOTHING else (no matter the bus/connection).

If you do not change those two pieces of data, Windows won't change drive letter assignment.

And in any case, with the exception of the volume from which windows is booted from you can manually assign/reassign drive letters alright.

 

The drive letter assignment is through HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices .

There will be two keys in it, one with the Volume GUID and one with the drive letter, BOTH containing the SAME data (in the case of an internal hard disk).

These data is detailed here (through Wayback Machine as right now the 911CD Forum is down :():

http://web.archive.o...showtopic=19663

Nothing has changed since 2K.

 

A Volume GUID:

http://msdn.microsof...8(v=vs.85).aspx

though not really "unique" has a very low chance of collision and AFAIK it's generation is time/machine dependent (and not bus/interface).

 

jaclaz



#19
Tripredacus

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Tripredacus ... don't have anything to offer about the heat situation but in your first post I learned about two programs I had never heard of ... from your pictures ... TechPowerUp GPU-Z v0.7.2 and CPUID HWMonitor. I have a Pentium M (1.6) IBM Thinkpad with XP Pro but I don't get all the information that you get ... I guess you have more sensors to detect more readings. Still glad to have found out about these two software programs.

...

 

For the longest time I always ignored these types of programs because, like you, I had always older boards that didn't seem to give me any sort of readings. I only had one of these already, the GPU-Z from when my old video card was failing. I was surprised when opening it that it showed me the video card temperature which was why I went to find the other one. My only complaint is that it doesn't pick up the fan speeds, but that is probably because most of them run off the PSU. I will have to check again later to see if any of them are actually connected to the board.

 

 

I'm only wondering because if I replace both drives, going from IDE to SATA, Windows could potentially change the drive letters couldn't it? Even if I did clone the IDE drive to SATA and everything would be the same, Windows still would know it was a new disk and enumerate it that first time...

NO.


jaclaz

 

 

Thanks then that is good to know.

 

Also on a side note, thinking about that airflow animation and what Charlotte said before... I think I can made some stride in increasing airflow to the area where the intake that blows over the hard drives is. :ph34r:


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