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Boot XP from 32MB ssd and big IDE drive

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#1
Roman78

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Hello everybody...

 

I have a problem with my musikplayer project.

 

First of all about my project. I got some old cash register computers from my company, DLOG HPC 5, these are old 8,4" touschscreen computers with an AMD K6-II 400 Mhz CPU and 256 mb Ram. XP runs fine on it. Also installed Foobar2000 as musik library.

 

Now the problem is that the computer only sees max 32 Gb harddisks. Bigger harddisks are not seen by the Bios (there is no Bios update and no expansion slots for an extra controller). Now i tried 2 harddisks, the first (20gb) with XP and the secend (80gb) for data, than set the second harddisk on "None" in the bios. XP sees the bigger harddisk and it's working. But i don't have the space for two harddisks in this case. Now i got a 32mb (megabyte) SSD, a so called "on disk module", this one would fit next to a normal 2,5" harddisk. Than i tried to get XP in the first partiton on the big harddisk and the boot part on the 32 mb ssd. But this is not working because the harddisk is not accessible whitout a bios entery.

 

And now i need some help.

 

I know from the very old past, when there was the 8 gb and 32 gb limit, that harddisk manufacturers had software to write some data into the MBR so that the OS would see the bigger space. But is this also possible whit my problem. Or is there another solution?




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#2
cdob

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Without BIOS support you may switch to hard disk

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21242

 

To set this up, use the 32 MB SSD and the 20 GB HDD.

If this works, copy files from the 20 GB HDD to the 80 GB HDD. Next adjust signature checksum again.

 

 

Or patch the BIOS to remove the 32 GB limit.

http://web.inter.nl....rink/k6plus.htm



#3
jaclaz

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The "fake signature" method (or "XP Kansas City Shuffle") that cdob :thumbup: referred you to is likely the only way.

 

In any case it might be easier to do the tests if after having duly tread the given thread:

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21242

to grasp the concepts, and particularly this post by Dietmar that lists the strictly needed set of files:

http://www.911cd.net...ndpost&p=144095

you would use this nice project (also by cdob):

http://reboot.pro/in...?showtopic=6672

 

See if you find the manual approach doable, feel free to ask questions/help, keep us posted.

 

jaclaz


Edited by jaclaz, 15 August 2013 - 08:37 AM.


#4
Roman78

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Is it not possible to use DDO on the smaller harddisk to active the bigger one?

 

Also found PLOP (http://www.plop.at/e...otmanagers.html), maybe this could be a solution. Plop aslo reads vmk files.



#5
jaclaz

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I am not aware of a similar DDO and of it can work on that particular machine, the "right" way has been already suggested (BIOS patching) but again it might be non-trivial. 

 

PLoP :thumbup: could also be an alternative to the "XP Kansas City Shuffle" but AFAIK/AFAICR it extends ONLY the USB (and the CD-ROM IDE) part of the BIOS, so I don't believe it can be of use (but I may well be wrong on this).

 

PLoP has been vastly (and successfully) used (together or without the "XP Kansas City Shuffle") on whole families of machines which hardware included a USB 2.0 controller but the BIOS only provided USB 1.1. support at boot time, but I dont' see "USB" anywhere in your question.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "Plop aslo reads vmk files." :unsure:

 

jaclaz



#6
Roman78

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Oh i ment vmdk files, Vmware virtual Disk image files.

 

The problem is that this is a special mainboard (see picture), and there are no custom BIOS files, and im not sure to make my own. But it's worth a try... i have 14 of those machies here. So no problem when i kill one or two :D

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#7
jaclaz

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Oh i ment vmdk files, Vmware virtual Disk image files.

I really don't think that PLoP has any support for VMDK. (though there is a - very limited at the moment - VHD loader):
http://www.plop.at/en/vhdloader.html
https://forum.plop.a...hp/topic,448.0/
 
 
 
 

The problem is that this is a special mainboard (see picture), and there are no custom BIOS files, and im not sure to make my own. But it's worth a try... i have 14 of those machies here. So no problem when i kill one or two :D

Sure :), but still you have a relatively easy "universal" solution at hand, and before risking to kill *any* machine, I would try that one.
BTW, given the "age" of that motherboard it will likely have the BIOS on a socket (cannot be sure from the photo), if it has you should be able of doing a "hot-swap" of the BIOS, i.e. to be able to easily recover the (accidentally) "killed" machine.

Nice little machines, and it seems like they do have some commercial value:
http://www.ebay.com/...=item4ac5c25996

jaclaz

#8
cdob

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Is it not possible to use DDO on the smaller harddisk to active the bigger one?

 

Which BIOS do yo use? It's a Award 4.51PG?

Which hard disk do you use?

A DDO is asking for trouble in the long terme. Try a DDO solution from the hard disk manufacturer.

 

 

The problem is that this is a special mainboard (see picture), and there are no custom BIOS files, and im not sure to make my own.

 

http://www.ryston.cz...bios/award.html
http://www.ryston.cz...a586hx_mod.html

Asks Jan or Petr to patch the BIOS.



#9
cdob

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Is it not possible to use DDO on the smaller harddisk to active the bigger one?

What about XP booting without BIOS support?

 

If you like to use DDO:

 

First truncate the 80 GB HDD to 32 GB. 

Use a hardware jumper.

Or use software: use HDD installation tools. Can you connect the HDD to another machine?

Connect the HDD to the HPC 5, primary master. Enable HDD at BIOS.

 

http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/
There are some HDD installation tools at Ultimate Boot CD. Some are OEM versions from Ontrack's DDO.

Or http://vintage-pc.tr.../hdd_utils.html

Install the DDO, this enables a 80 GB HDD.

Install XP next.



#10
Roman78

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I'll try to patch the bios. It's an Award D586 on a socket. So it's no risk indeed.

@cdob unfortuanlly does all my 2,5" harddisk no hardware 32gb jumper. otherwise it would no problem. Well a little problem, the bigger harddisks i have are IBM/Hitachi, and IBM does not have the DDO awailible anymore (but i think i should have one in my drivers backups.... somewere. I have somethink of 20 GB old drivers from the Dos and W9x era).

 

Nice little machines, and it seems like they do have some commercial value:
http://www.ebay.com/...=item4ac5c25996
 
What...??? 500 Dollar... Holy sh...
 
I have 14 of those here. Or let say 13, because we had some whit touchscreen and 640x480 resoution and some whitout touschscreen and 800x600 resolution. So now i have a 800x600 whit toushscreen.


#11
jaclaz

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What...??? 500 Dollar... Holy sh...

 
I have 14 of those here. Or let say 13, because we had some whit touchscreen and 640x480 resoution and some whitout touschscreen and 800x600 resolution. So now i have a 800x600 whit toushscreen.

 

You are sitting apparently on a small fortune. ;)

 

jaclaz



#12
Roman78

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We had 70, the most went into the garbage. But that was before my time here in this company.



#13
cdob

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unfortuanlly does all my 2,5" harddisk no hardware 32gb jumper. otherwise it would no problem. Well a little problem, the bigger harddisks i have are IBM/Hitachi, and IBM does not have the DDO awailible anymore (but i think i should have one in my drivers backups

 

 

IBM Drive Fitness test limits the capacity too.
Use another machine to set the capacity. There are 2.5 to 3.5 IDE adapter.

 

There is Disk Manger V9.61 (IBM) at Ultimate Boot CD.

However I doubt this support XP and not a HGST HDD.

 

Idea, not tested:
Seagate "DiscWizard Starter Edition 10" creates a rescue DDO floppy: Ontrack Boot Diskette.

Run a virtual machine, write DDO to a virtual floppy.
Copy the floppy image to the 32 MB SSD.
Install grub4dos to the 32 MB SSD, include floppy image to menu.lst.
Connect 80 GB, include to BIOS.
Boot the 32 MB SSD, launch DDO floppy image.
Can you access 80 GB at 80 GB hard disk?

 

Next step:
Boot a XP CD, DDO is not loaded, hence a 32 GB HDD.
Install XP to a 2 GB partition.

Boot XP via DDO floppy image.
Create a 78 GB data partition.

Benefit:
you can boot and repair XP without a loaded DDO.
However data partition is available partially only, data loss is possible, be carefaul.

 

There is a Asus TXP4-X, a AMD K6-III 450, 2x 128 MB SD-RAM (16 Mx8) and a 40 GB Maxtor HDD at local museum box.
There is the Award 4.51PG BIOS with the a 32 GB limit. And Jan provides a patched BIOS too.
I may be temped to do some tests.



#14
cdob

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New game: plain XP, without a DDO

 

Remember:
The Textmode part rely on BIOS and MBR: windows partition
The booted XP rely on partition code to mount a partition: second data partition

 

1. Truncate the 80 HDD to 32 GB (Seagate DiscWizard or IBM Drive Fitness)
2. Connect the HDD to the  DLOG HPC 5 as primary master with BIOS support
3. Install XP, create a partition within first 32 GB
4. Use another (USB) machine. Set 80 GB size to 80 GB HDD, Create a new partition, fill up the HDD
5. Truncate the 80 HDD to 32 GB
6. Connect the HDD to the DLOG HPC 5
7. Enjoy a 80 GB HDD

 

Of course, do not change parititons after.

Avoid all partiton tools at the truncated HDD.

 

The 40 GB HDD is available at the TXP4-X, BIOS from 12/02/97

Todo: fill second partition to the brim, does it boot still?

 

 

@jaclaz

How to create second partition within HPC 5?

That's create a second partition up to 80 GB at a 32 GB HDD?



#15
cdob

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How to create second partition within HPC 5?

That's create a second partition up to 80 GB at a 32 GB HDD?

 

New game 2nd: plain XP, without a DDO

 

DiscWizard v10 list max sectors, even at a truncated 80 GB HDD.

PTEDIT32 is available still

ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english_us_canada/tools/pq/utilities/PTEDIT32.zip

 

1. Truncate the 80 GB HDD to 32 GB (Seagate DiscWizard or IBM Drive Fitness)
   Remember HDD max sectors
2. Connect the HDD to the DLOG HPC 5 as primary master with BIOS support
3. Install XP, create a partition less than 32 GB
4. run disk manager, create a second data partition: size fill up to 32 GB, don't format the volume
5. run ptedit32, recognice "Sectors Before" from second partition
   set "Sectors": calculate max sectors less sectors before
6. Reboot, format the volume  
7. Enjoy a 80 GB HDD

 

Be carefull: not fully tested



#16
jaclaz

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@jaclaz

How to create second partition within HPC 5?

That's create a second partition up to 80 GB at a 32 GB HDD?

I am not sure to understand the situation, I am not familiar with DDO's.

The issue with the size bigger than 32 Gb is with which value?

I mean once the XP has booted (from the partition contained into the first 32 GB) can it access the "\\.\phisicaldrive" beyond the 32 GB?

 

jaclaz



#17
cdob

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Todo: fill second partition to the brim, does it boot still?

 

I mean once the XP has booted (from the partition contained into the first 32 GB) can it access the "\\.\phisicaldrive" beyond the 32 GB?

 

No, writing beyond the 32 GB fails actually: IO error

 

Game lost: plain XP without a DDO is not possible.



#18
jaclaz

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Game lost: plain XP without a DDO is not possible.

But still the IMHO simpler original idea of making use of the DOM and make an "XP Kansas City Shuffle" could work?

Another idea, maybe crazy.

What really happens when the disk bigger than 32 Gb is connected?
Tests:

  • install (or however boot from) grub4dos (on the DOM or anyway from "accessible" boot media)
  • what does grub4dos "sees" of the second >32 Gb hard disk? (does it sees it, what is the result of the geometry command?)
  • is the size of the first partition relevant/changes anything in the way the disk is seen?
  • would *somehow* the cdrom manual mapping through cdrom --init change anything? (or would SBM  http://btmgr.sourcef....net/about.html be able to do anything?)

 

jaclaz



#19
allen2

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Personnaly i would try the ddo approach, i used one (and had to use one again recently for 3TB drive) without any trouble as it should be the easiest to setup and use the full drive capacity.

But from what i read, sometime not even a ddo can work and you have to manually edit the drive geometry in the bios and set head to 255 (but that was to use only one drive).



#20
cdob

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install (or however boot from) grub4dos (on the DOM or anyway from "accessible" boot media)

 

 

Boot media CD-ROM drive at TX-P4

 

grldr as no emulation CD: CD not bootable

NT default bootsect.bin edited to load grldr as no emulation CD: CD not bootable

grub4dos 0.4.2 floppy image written as floppy emulation: grldr not found

 

All three CD does boot at another system.

 

A Isolinux and a BCDW boot CD does boot.

Chainloading grldr.exe not tested so far.

 

 

As for testing:

A 40 GB Maxtor HDD truncated to 32 GB (66055248 sectors).

And a Seagate HDD added too.

Seagate DiskWizard 10 booted.

DiskWizard does handle a non Seagate HDD, as long another Seagate HDD is available at system.

(DiskWizard does refuse a single connected non Seagate HDD.)

The DDO is written to the Maxtor HDD, a 8 GB partition created.

The Seagate HDD disconnected.

XP installed. Textmode offers a 40 GB HDD, installed to previous created 8 GB partition.

The 40 GB is writeable and readable at installed XP.

 

BartPE booted from CD (no DDO loaded):

HDD is available, offline XP is writable. However first 32 GB is readable and writable only.



#21
jaclaz

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grldr as no emulation CD: CD not bootable

NT default bootsect.bin edited to load grldr as no emulation CD: CD not bootable

grub4dos 0.4.2 floppy image written as floppy emulation: grldr not found

 

 

  1. grldr as no emulation CD: CD not bootable <-this sounds "logical"
  2. NT default bootsect.bin edited to load grldr as no emulation CD: CD not bootable <-this also sounds "logical"
  3. grub4dos 0.4.2 floppy image written as floppy emulation: grldr not found <- this less so :unsure:

 

I mean, such "pesky" BIOSes did have issues with no-emulation boot CD's, the "plainer" El-Torito floppy emulation has much more chances to work, what about a "plain" DOS floppy (with added to it grldr)?

If I am to attribute (from common sense and experience) probabilities to the bootability of CD Rom's (on BIOSes with rudimental support for it) I would say:

Floppy emulation <- 98.24%

no-emulation <- 91.42%

hard disk emulation <-68.77%

If you remember the good ol' times, the original NT 4.00 install CD was NOT bootable... :whistle: and in the "transition" from  BIOSes that did not support CD-ROM booting and the ones that boot *any* CD, the use of BCDL was common. 

Just to remind how even Qemu did not directly support hard disk emulation:

http://reboot.pro/to...t-etboot/page-2

http://reboot.pro/to...etboot/?p=29314

 

(but still what I was suggesting originally to the OP was to try booting from the DOM that is - to all effects - a (very small) internal hard disk)

 

BTW, it seems that with our talking we must have scared :ph34r: the OP :w00t:.

 

 

jaclaz



#22
Roman78

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Nono.. im still here. And i'll try something of those. But a.t.m. i had no time to test it. I was buisy to get an old 802.11b card wordking in an Amiga 1200.

 

But i'll try to get it working this week.



#23
cdob

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what about a "plain" DOS floppy

What's a floppy? ;)
I'm lazy to dismount the flopy drive from another machine, no spare one available.

Another HDD attached as primary master, the 32 GiB truncated HDD attached as secondary master now.
Grub4dos installed to primary master MBR.

Grub4dos does load:
 

geometry (hd1)
drive 0x81(LBA): C/H/S=1023/255/63, Sector Count/Size=16434495/512
Partition num: 0, active, Filesystem type unknown, partition type 0x54

It's reported as 8 GB drive.

partition type 0x54: compare section: 8.2 DM6:DDO
http://www.tldp.org/...sk-HOWTO-8.html

the entire disk is shifted by 63 sectors

 
cat --hex (hd1)63+1
Yes, there is another MBR.


Circumvent the DDO:
map (hd0) (hd2)
map (hd1)63+16434000 (hd0)

Warning: total_sectors calculated from partition table(80276805) is greater than the number of sectors in the whole disk image (16434000). The int13 handler will disable any read/write operations across the image boundary. That means you will not be able to read/write sectors (in absolute address, i.e., lba) 16434000 - 80276804, though they are logically inside your emulated virtual disk(according to the partition table).


The used XP partition is less than 8 GB, within available boundary.
 
map --hook
root (hd0,0)
chainloader /ntldr
boot
XP does boot. First 32 GB of HDD available.
XP seems to shift 63 sectors given a partition type 0x54.



With the DDO
map (hd0) (hd1)
map (hd1) (hd0)
map --hook
root (hd0,0)root (hd0,0)
chainloader +1
XP does boot. The whole HDD is available.

 
 

What really happens when the disk bigger than 32 Gb is connected?

The HDD set to a 40 GB HDD:
connected as primary master, configured as non at BIOS: Machine dosn't boot, BIOS hangs
connected as secondary master, configured as non at BIOS: Machine dosn't boot, BIOS hangs

@Roman78 Try the suggested steps.

#24
jaclaz

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What's a floppy?  ;)

JFYI ;):
http://news.bbc.co.u...ews/2905953.stm

A:las poor floppy, I knew you well

 

 

jaclaz



#25
pcalvert

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Personally, I would use Linux instead of Windows XP. It should install and run just fine with no tricks needed.

Phil

Edited by pcalvert, 27 August 2013 - 03:43 PM.





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