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XP and 7 Dual Boot - SSD (Revisited)

- - - - - Dual Boot bootmanager SSD grub

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18 replies to this topic

#1
Dogway

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OK, I'm just one week away of doing the real thing, so I'm going to review the process.
It's the continuation of this thread but my last post was ignored, so I will start with a clean sheet now.
I will use one SSD on MBR (UEFI on BIOS mode) with 2 partitions, XP on first, and 7 on second partition (that is, no 100Mb partition from 7).

This is what I want:

on XP:

C: (SSD 1st partition)
D: (2nd Drive) (for
"Documents and Settings")

 

 

on 7:

C: (SSD 2nd Partition)
D: (2nd Drive)
(for "Documents and Settings")

M: (SSD 1st Partition)

I need 7 to watch XP partition for the SSD Trim, which XP can't do alone. Yet, I don't want it to override the default D: partition letter which will be used for Data on both OS, and both XP and 7 "Documents and Settings" folders.

My questions are next, I pretend to use grub4dos as explained here, is that possible? I mean I will use UEFI in BIOS mode, and MBR type partitions. Also, what OS should I install first, maybe this question is linked to: what boot manager is recommended? (XP, 7, or 3rd party's).

Then I also wonder what to do to avoid the 100mb partition Win7 creates. I have read that for that you better create partitions beforehand, that's fine. My question is, can I then format it to NTFS? My intention is to plug the SSD to my current XP, and partition and format to NTFS, the problem is that giving partitioning or formatting to a drive also "creates a proper boot sector on the drive", and that can cause issues.


To make myself clear on a question I had on the previous thread I guess this guy had problems installing Win7 over MBR because he was on EFI mode (instead of BIOS compatibility mode), is that correct?

 

 

This would be my grub4dos procedure, in the case of using 7's bootmanager:

-make XP partition the root partition with:
root (hd0,0)
ls

-check is the correct partition and make it active (as in C:), while hiding second partition (7's partition)
makeactive (hd0,0)
hide (hd0,1)

-reboot, and install XP (7's "second" partition will now have a random letter and show as inactive), let it do the unattended, etc. reboot and load again grub4dos from CD to unhide 7 partition, make it active (default OS) by typing:

unhide (hd0,1)
makeactive (hd0,1)

-Install Windows7, now Windows7 will install its boot sector on the XP partition (unhidden), so the 7's boot manager will recognize it and allow it to boot under the bootmanager. So in this case the Win7 boot manager will be used. Then you can go back to grub to set the XP partition active to make it the default OS.

makeactive (hd0,0)

The big problem here is the last step installing Windows7. I need the first (XP) partition (hd0,0) unhidden so 7 can install its boot sector on it, yet I want it hidden so in fact my Data drive which will be my default drive for "Document and Settings" is assigned the D: letter. I don't know how to make XP partition unhidden and at the same time not being D: (just a random late letter is ok).
 




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#2
jaclaz

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but my last post was ignored, 
 

Oh my!

Your last post was ignored! :w00t: :ph34r:

Seemingly also my last post here:

http://www.msfn.org/...boot/?p=1043170

was ignored, but I am not whining about it. :whistle:

 

With all due respect :) you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

If you use a EFI board in BIOS mode, it is in BIOS mode, i.e. it is to all effects a BIOS motherboard.

(last character in the above is a "full stop" or "period")

 

Sure it is possible to use grub4dos, no, there is NO risk to "cause issues" when writing a bootsector, if you use properly the proper tools.

 

Two possible ways, each in 10 easy steps:

  1. Make an active, primary partition (to which you will install 7)
  2. Make a second primary partition (the one for XP)
  3. Install 7 "normally" on the first partition. (this partition will get drive letter "C:" under Windows 7)
  4. Hide the first partition and make active the second.
  5. Install XP "normally" on the second partition. (this partition will get drive letter "C:" under Windows XP)
  6. Unhide the first partition and make it active.
  7. Boot to Windows 7, access the second partition (you can assign to it *any* drive letter, let's say "M:") and copy from it to the root of the first partition the files NTLDR.. NTDETECT.COM and BOOT.INI
  8. Use BCDEDIT (or any similar tool) to add to your \boot\BCD an entry for the XP
  9. Use Notepad (or any other similar tool) to edit the arcpath in the copy of BOOT.INI on the first partition to point to second partition.
  10. Done.

OR:

  1. create the first partition (NO NEED to FORMAT it)
  2. create the second partition and format it and make it active
  3. delete the first partition
  4. install the XP "normally" on second partition (this partition will get drive letter "C:" under Windows XP)
  5. from the booted XP, re-create the first partition, format it and make it active
  6. copy to it the files NTLDR.. NTDETECT.COM and BOOT.INI
  7. Use Notepad (or any other similar tool) to edit the arcpath in the copy of BOOT.INI on the first partition to point to second partition.
  8. Test that the machine boots normally to XP, then hide the second partition
  9. install Windows 7 "normally" on first partition (it should "autoimport" the settings in \boot\BCD for booting the XP partition)
  10. Unhide the second partition

Basically this latter equates to installing 7 on the first partition of a machine where XP was installed on the non-first partition (but still using drive letter C: for it).

 

jaclaz


Edited by jaclaz, 09 November 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#3
Dogway

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Thanks for input. I'm not whining about it, I'm excusing the creation of a new thread.

Anyway your response on that link is unrelated here, not because an SSD is any different than a HDD, but because my approach changes when I put an SSD in between, mainly because I will place "Documents and Settings" on D: at boot. That changes the whole thing and I'm not sure you took that into account on your 2 methods.

What I extract from your methods is next:

Method 01:
-Make partitions (question: where, what tools, ie. as I exposed above gparted creates issues)
-Install 7 normally on 1st partition. Now this will make 7 partition to be named C: (question; what letter will the 2nd partition be assigned? I need it to be other than D: because this one needs to be my HDD drive.)
-Now I hide 1st partition (7's) and install XP on 2nd's, therefore now HDD drive will be assigned D: and D&S will be placed there.
-Boot to Win7, and access my 2nd (XP's) partition (D: letter? read my above question) now I can change the letter to M: for example, and copy the boot files to 1st partition (7's).
-Then correct the path of XP's location (2nd partition instead of 1st, see below) on boot.ini placed in 1st partition.
-change from:
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(0)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP...
to:
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP...
-change my 7 boot settings to add XP
-the boot loader will be 7's, so I change there my default boot system.

Method 02:
-Make partitions (question: where, what tools, ie. as I exposed above gparted creates issues)
-1st partition is nonexistent when XP is installed so XP has HDD drive as D:, so it installs D&S there.
-recreate 1st partition and make active from XP and copy to it the XP's boot files, then correct the boot.ini path to the new XP location.
-change from:
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(0)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP...
to:
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP...
-test that the machine boots (reads 1st partition boot.ini correctly). Now question: once entered on XP recreated 1st partition has what letter?
-hide 2nd (XP's) partition (so HDD drive gets D: on 7) and install Win7 on 1st partition. 7 will import "XP"'s boot settings therefore I will use 7 boot manager. I change on 7 boot options the default boot system (XP on my case)
-unhide 2nd partition (XP's) so I can use trim on it from 7.

 


Edited by Dogway, 09 November 2013 - 02:24 PM.


#4
jaclaz

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Thanks for input. I'm not whining about it, I'm excusing the creation of a new thread.

 

Ah, well, then it's good :).

 

BUT there is still something that you are seemingly missing.

 

Automatic drive lettering under Windows NT follows some rules (which may be queer, but still "rules").

Of those, what you need to know is that first active partition on a disk will get drive letter C:\ (this is independent from it being physically the first partition on the disk or it's adddress being in the first partition table slot).

Any partition volume (BUT the one on which the system, let's say the \Windows\ directory is) can have assigned letters manually changed at will.

As you were told in the other thread, the XP setup provides additionally a simple method, the migrate.inf file, to pre-assign *any* letter to *any* volume.

 

The point is that until the Registry is accessed, drive letters "do not exist".

 

What you have before are just "arcpaths", i.e. the things similar to "multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(0)\WINDOWS".

What the above means, is get to the first partition "partition(0)" (i.e. partition in slot 0 of the partition table) of first disk "rdisk(0)".

 

Then, in the Registry, there is the info to "couple" a given partition, identified by it's starting offset and on a given disk (identified by it's disk signature), see the already mentioned:

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=19663

 

You can create the partitions with "normal" XP (or 7) disk manager.

Gparted does NOT "create issues", gparted used outside it's intended scope and/or not properly "may create issues", which is another thing.

The trouble with tools like gparted (and any number of otherwise excellent partitioning tools) is that they give the user the FALSE feeling that they are easy, nice, graphical tools.

All of them are more or less nice and graphical, but very far from "easy".

 

You can use grub4dos or any among a zillion tools (any hex/disk editor will also do) under a DOS, a PE or Linux/whatever to hide or make active (or delete) a partition entry.

 

Now, the remaining thing to be planned/understood is:

How EXACTLY do you plan to place the "Documents and settings" on the "D:" volume on hard disk?

(exact method you intend to use for Winsdows XP and exact method you intend to use for Windows 7)

 

jaclaz



#5
Dogway

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Ok, I will make the partitions on the SSD later today or tomorrow using XP.

For the D&S folder on D: I will use nlite's last session ini file, there's a section for it.
 

[Options]
CABNoHigh
DisableFreereq
DisableMinMem
ProfilesDir = "D:\Documents and Settings (XP)"
TargetPath = "WINDOWS"
temp_dir = "D:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Configuración local\Temp"
AdvTweaks

I don't know if there are other or better ways for it, for Win7 I still have to do the research but I guess something similar is possible.

 

In principle method02 should work if I don't do the dumb test, and I'm PRETTY SURE that I did everything correct when changing the boot.ini.


Edited by Dogway, 10 November 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#6
jaclaz

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I don't know if there are other or better ways for it, for Win7 I still have to do the research but I guess something similar is possible.

 

Well, for someone wanting to be in "full control", I guess it's about time to do that research, like now ;).

Hint:

http://answers.micro...22-4f56aebb296e

 

jaclaz 



#7
Dogway

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I never used the word "move", I guess that's why I never hit that page. ;)

 

Anyways I didn't come here to learn how to make unattendeds, with the premise that both unattended OS's (XP's and 7's) are set to place user folders in D: from installation what else do you need to know that changes the dual boot configuration mechanism? That link explains nothing different from what I do with nlite or later with Win Toolkit or whatever application, is just another "unattended".



#8
jaclaz

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... what else do you need to know that changes the dual boot configuration mechanism? That link explains nothing different from what I do with nlite or later with Win Toolkit or whatever application, is just another "unattended".

Specifically I *need* to know (on these specific topics) very little more :w00t:,and besides, it's not my system, it is yours and you are the one needing/wanting to set it up, and to set it up that way.

 

I thought that you might have been interested in the :yes::

http://answers.micro...22-4f56aebb296e

3.) You need to know what drive letter (or folder location) is going to be assigned to your Datadrive disk. So, this would be the time, in audit mode, to figure that out. If you need to partition or format the datadrive, do it now. On the Start Menu, right-click on "Computer" and choose Manage from the context menu, to get to the Computer Management console. In the Computer Management console, under Storage/Disk Management, you will find the tools to change drive letters, partition, etc.

 

on the other hand, very possibly you already know all that, and much more than that :), though you actually just declared you had made not any research and you were guessing that something similar was possible :unsure:.

 

In any case, the idea of doing an unattended install of one or both the OS's seems like being a "new" idea, in my perverted mind, the generic idea of "unattended", is:

  1. insert the boot disk
  2. make the PC boot from it
  3. walk away and come back after some time to find the system completely and fully configured

I would say that the plan you have is one of the more attended install plans ever conceived by the human mind. :unsure:

 

jaclaz



#9
Dogway

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I don't know why you hand pick every other thing that makes up for an argument that I'm not calling out, instead of helping me to set up a dual boot.

They guy you insist to quote to me is doing things very distinctly. I don't want to know-it-all, nor pretend to take a PhD on computer systems. That user "BrianWilder" starts with a SSD clean of partitions in which he will create the dumb 100mb partition (contrary to what you suggests), and an unmodified 7, and then upon install goes to 7's audit mode to make an unattended file (something I will already had done on Win Toolkit previously on my unattended ISO).

The installation of my unattended OS's are FULLY unattended, my grub4dos dual boot set up is FULLY attended. Let me remark that again, from the point I click on "install XP" I can decide to go watch a movie, and when I'm back I have my system running with hotfixes, programs, custom theme, and some drivers as well. But from that point then I have to reboot and to attend grub4dos to set up for a dual boot.

 

What else is that you need to know?



#10
jaclaz

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I don't know why you hand pick every other thing that makes up for an argument that I'm not calling out, instead of helping me to set up a dual boot.


Maybe because every time I try and help you what I suggest or hint is often taken as either obvious or unneeded, or both.  :unsure:

The good thing :) is that in a few months (since the time you had to be guided step by step, up to the most minute detail to make a much simpler dual boot setup) you have learned so much that you definitely overtook this old dinosaur :yes: on the knowledge highway.
 

They guy you insist to quote to me is doing things very distinctly. I don't want to know-it-all, nor pretend to take a PhD on computer systems. That user "BrianWilder" starts with a SSD clean of partitions in which he will create the dumb 100mb partition (contrary to what you suggests), and an unmodified 7, and then upon install goes to 7's audit mode to make an unattended file (something I will already had done on Win Toolkit previously on my unattended ISO).

The installation of my unattended OS's are FULLY unattended, my grub4dos dual boot set up is FULLY attended. Let me remark that again, from the point I click on "install XP" I can decide to go watch a movie, and when I'm back I have my system running with hotfixes, programs, custom theme, and some drivers as well. But from that point then I have to reboot and to attend grub4dos to set up for a dual boot.

Which means that you know about both Windows XP and Windows 7 unattended much more than I do, and you didn't actually need the suggestions I gave you, sorry :( for having attempted to tell you things you already knew, and knew to a much wider extent than myself.
 

What else is that you need to know?

As said there is nothing that I *need* to know, but you were very kind to ask, thanks :).

JFYI, I never used unattended setups, and I am not planning to use them any soon, and - personally - I have all my multiboot systems have a different drive letter and the system letter is not C:\ for any of them (exclusion made for DOS) but de gustibus non disputandum est, compare with:

http://www.msfn.org/...g-dos-and-win7/


jaclaz



#11
Dogway

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I think that for some reason you are taking my words too personal, trying to cause a stir or something. I think that you feel stupid or angry yourself after making or trying to make fun of me in the first post thinking I was asking the same thing all over and then realising that there were 2 new things that would make the set up harder and different, a new OS 7, and a fixed "D:" drive for the user profile folders.
Maybe I took some of your posts lightly after you tried to lecture me on unattended (something done or not worried about and not asked) or unrelated things, which I might welcome but not as much under lack of help on the main issue.

If you are worried about my memory retention on the old dual boot thread, don't worry, I made myself an useful txt explaining myself everything in my own words. I don't forget what I deem worth remembering. I make unattendeds because it's less of a pain to reinstall OS that way, I have windows very customized and at the same time I reinstall almost once per year due to using many programs (OS reinstall is actually recommended every 1 or 2 years). Hidden drives is important if you want to fully isolate systems (think of virus), I also find C: for OS and D: for data more convenient, I can picture myself messing things up installing programs in C: while on Win7 (D:), you can't judge people by your own standards. I just have one PC now, all the rest died this year so I want it fine and working, I don't game on them, just study and work so I need to feel comfortable since I deal many hours with a lot of files and numerous programs, etc.

If you don't need to know anything else, and seemingly have nothing more to add just let it go so somebody can come to help (unlikely here since you already took over). I might ask at another place, who knows.


Edited by Dogway, 10 November 2013 - 03:17 PM.


#12
jaclaz

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I think that for some reason you are taking my words too personal, trying to cause a stir or something. I think that you feel stupid or angry yourself after making or trying to make fun of me in the first post thinking I was asking the same thing all over and then realising that there were 2 new things that would make the set up harder and different, a new OS 7, and a fixed "D:" drive for the user profile folders.

Actually I was just kidding, but humour - like beauty - is often in the eye of the beholder :w00t:.
 

I make unattendeds because it's less of a pain to reinstall OS that way, I have windows very customized and at the same time I reinstall almost once per year due to using many programs (OS reinstall is actually recommended every 1 or 2 years).


You see :), this is actually the idea behind taking part to a forum, people can talk about their experiences and learn (or just compare their own experiences with those of other people), as an example today I learned this :yes::

OS reinstall is actually recommended every 1 or 2 years


jaclaz

#13
Dogway

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There's another option indeed, install OS, let it grow mold and when you take it back in 5 years time it will be as shiny as new. :w00t:

You never pass one day without learning something new, don't ya?



#14
jaclaz

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There's another option indeed, install OS, let it grow mold and when you take it back in 5 years time it will be as shiny as new. :w00t:
You never pass one day without learning something new, don't ya?

Yep :yes:

You live and learn. At any rate, you live.


jaclaz

#15
Dogway

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There's another option indeed, install OS, let it grow mold and when you take it back in 5 years time it will be as shiny as new. :w00t:
You never pass one day without learning something new, don't ya?

Yep :yes:

You live and learn. At any rate, you live.


jaclaz

 

 

Your quote balloon is missing, but at any rate some people don't even get to learn.

 

Dogway



#16
jaclaz

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Your quote balloon is missing, but at any rate some people don't even get to learn.

WHICH "quote balloon" is missing? :unsure:
That sentence is by Douglas Adams :yes: and I correctly put it inside QUOTE tags referencing him.

jaclaz
 



#17
Dogway

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oh "Douglas Adams"! Now I see  :yes:    how I didn't know him!!

Let me add a quote myself:

¿Por qué no te callas?


Edited by Dogway, 11 November 2013 - 01:43 PM.


#18
jaclaz

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Let me add a quote myself:

¿Por qué no te callas?

What's this ? Quote day? :unsure:

http://en.wikipedia....,_the_Scrivener

I would prefer not to


jaclaz

#19
Dogway

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quote day? did you even click the link? :thumbup  hahaha good one.
 

I really should write to you in quotes, maybe that's the odd way you better communicate. It really suits me though, every phrase I write is easily quoteable, as a proof your posts!


Edited by Dogway, 11 November 2013 - 02:19 PM.






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