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Windows7 and SSD (no 100mb partition)


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31 replies to this topic

#1
Dogway

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1.I read that in order to prevent 7's additional 100mb partition you need to feed 7 with a previously partitioned "single" partition, that is, if 7 sees another partition around it will try to install bootloader and all that jazz there. Is this true?

2.I ask because additionally I need to supply 7 with a D: drive in which it will install the Windows user profile (Documents and Settings, etc) by means of unattended CD, since well I will be using a SSD as my system drive. What can I do to circumvent both requirements?

3.I also have another question, the SSD needs pre-partitioning for avoiding the 7's unneeded 100mb partition. What tool can I use to partition the SSD that at the same time doesn't screw with the SSD's alignment?

Thank you!

Edited by Dogway, 13 November 2013 - 04:12 PM.



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#2
gotenks98

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Just use diskpart prior to selecting the partition. When starting the install when you get to the screen before you pick the drive press shift+f10. That will open a command prompt. From there use diskpart to partition the disk. Exit the prompt when done then click next for the next screen.



#3
Dogway

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So diskpart will manage SSD alignment just fine right? Will D: be safe from 7?

Also is XP own partitioner ok for a SSD (I will first install XP on it).

PD: I think I will first boot to 7 CD, do all the partitioning there (7's diskpart should be aware of SSD), then install XP, and after the rest with the 7 CD back again.

Edited by Dogway, 13 November 2013 - 04:50 PM.


#4
Tripredacus

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You can also install your OS using an unattend file. Here is an example that will deploy 7PRO64 to a single partition:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<unattend xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:unattend">
    <settings pass="windowsPE">
        <component name="Microsoft-Windows-Setup" processorArchitecture="amd64" publicKeyToken="31bf3856ad364e35" language="neutral" versionScope="nonSxS" xmlns:wcm="http://schemas.microsoft.com/WMIConfig/2002/State" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
            <UserData>
                <ProductKey>
                    <Key>HYF8J-CVRMY-CM74G-RPHKF-PW487</Key>
                    <WillShowUI>OnError</WillShowUI>
                </ProductKey>
                <AcceptEula>true</AcceptEula>
            </UserData>
            <ImageInstall>
                <OSImage>
                    <InstallTo>
                        <DiskID>0</DiskID>
                        <PartitionID>1</PartitionID>
                    </InstallTo>
                    <WillShowUI>OnError</WillShowUI>
                </OSImage>
            </ImageInstall>
            <DiskConfiguration>
                <Disk wcm:action="add">
                    <ModifyPartitions>
                        <ModifyPartition wcm:action="add">
                            <Active>true</Active>
                            <Extend>true</Extend>
                            <Format>NTFS</Format>
                            <Label>System</Label>
                            <Letter>C</Letter>
                            <Order>1</Order>
                            <PartitionID>1</PartitionID>
                        </ModifyPartition>
                    </ModifyPartitions>
                    <DiskID>0</DiskID>
                    <WillWipeDisk>true</WillWipeDisk>
                    <CreatePartitions>
                        <CreatePartition wcm:action="add">
                            <Order>1</Order>
                            <Size>20480</Size>
                            <Extend>false</Extend>
                            <Type>Primary</Type>
                        </CreatePartition>
                    </CreatePartitions>
                </Disk>
                <WillShowUI>OnError</WillShowUI>
            </DiskConfiguration>
        </component>
        <component name="Microsoft-Windows-International-Core-WinPE" processorArchitecture="amd64" publicKeyToken="31bf3856ad364e35" language="neutral" versionScope="nonSxS" xmlns:wcm="http://schemas.microsoft.com/WMIConfig/2002/State" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
            <SetupUILanguage>
                <UILanguage>en-us</UILanguage>
            </SetupUILanguage>
            <InputLocale>0409:00000409</InputLocale>
            <SystemLocale>en-us</SystemLocale>
            <UILanguage>en-us</UILanguage>
            <UserLocale>en-US</UserLocale>
        </component>
    </settings>
</unattend>

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#5
cdob

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So diskpart will manage SSD alignment just fine right?

Yes, Windows 7 diskpart aligns fine for a SSD.
 

Will D: be safe from 7?

Rephrase the question.
Don't you like to set user profile to D: ?
 

Also is XP own partitioner ok for a SSD (I will first install XP on it).

No, don't use XP diskpart.
Use Windows 7 diskpart to prepare the SSD: create a single primary partition.
Install XP SP3 next.
Given one partiton at SDD only, D: refers to the HDD.

To install Windows 7, boot windows 7 DVD, run diskpart.
select the first partition at SDD, hide the partition: adjust the ID
create the second partition
sel disk 0
sel par 1
detail partition
set ID=27 override
create partiton primary
active
format fs ntfs quick
Given one available partiton at SDD only, D: refers to the HDD.

#6
Dogway

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Thanks cdbob, huge help, I guess that diskpart is doing already everything I had planned for grub4dos...
I wasn't sure so I explicitly added the align flag to the command, my question is how I create the second partition from the unpartitioned space, I set it as if "create partition primary" will create a partition of all available space minus hidden ID=27 space. I also wonder if it's not better full instead of quick format in a SSD.

This is how it should end, D: is a second logical drive HDD:
on XP:

C: (SSD 1st partition)
D: (2nd Drive) (for
"Documents and Settings XPx86")


on 7 (boot manager):

C: (SSD 2nd Partition)
D: (2nd Drive)
(for "Documents and Settings 7x64")
M: (SSD 1st Partition)
 
boot to 7 CD

diskpart
sel disk 0
convert basic
create partition primary size=65560 align=1024
format fs ntfs
sel par 1
set ID=27 override
create partition primary align=1024
format fs ntfs
sel par 1
set ID=07 override
active
sel par 2
set ID=27 override
list par
exit


Install XP, and inside XP in Disk Management unhide partition 2, copy there the XP boot files (NTLDR, boot.ini, NTDETECT.COM), and hide again.
boot to 7 CD again

sel disk 0
sel par 1
detail partition
set ID=27 override
sel par 2
set ID=07 override
active
exit

Install 7 (because there is only one partition previously created it won't create the System Reserved Partition of 100Mb)

Enter 7 and unhide XP partition from inside 7, assign a late (ie M:) letter.
1. Boot to 7 CD Diskpart and create both partitions with correct SSD alignment and format them.
2. Hide 2nd partition and install XP on 1st partition.
3. On XP Disk Management unhide 2nd partition (assign letter), copy boot files to it, and hide again (since I won't be able later due to it being a "boot" partition).
4. Boot to 7 CD Diskpart again, hide XP partition, check partition 2 is unhidden, make active and install 7.
5. Enter 7 (now default boot loader) and unhide XP partition (by assigning letter).

I think this is how I will proceed if nobody warns me of something wrong. I'm sorry this dragged to a somewhat extension of my last thread but that rendered as a lost cause.

Edited by Dogway, 14 November 2013 - 09:00 PM.


#7
cdob

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I also wonder if it's not better full instead of quick format in a SSD.

No, do NOT do this.
A format overrides a disk nowadays. The SDD if full that way, this is to avoided.

There is no need to set align 1024, it's proper aligned by default.

#8
jaclaz

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Only for the record:

  • 07 means NTFS (or HPFS or exFAT)
  • 17 means the same HIDDEN
  • 27 means Windows "RE partition" (or PQService one)

http://www.win.tue.n...on_types-1.html

 

Whilst also a type 27 is not assigned a drive letter, it may be interpreted "strangely" by setup :unsure:, and I would personally use type 17 for hiding a partition.

 

jaclaz



#9
Dogway

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thanks cdob, SSD is indeed a game changer, so many things need to be known...

Yes, it looks like I should use 17. Also read it here. I looked for that list for a while, probably not enough so thank you.

I'm not entirely sure I should use 07 either, or look for the disk/partition inherent ID and set to that. Switching constantly to grub4dos can be tiresome.



#10
cdob

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Whilst also a type 27 is not assigned a drive letter, it may be interpreted "strangely" by setup :unsure:, and I would personally use type 17 for hiding a partition.

There are common used types and threre are manufacturer defined types.
It's a grey area, in doubt I prefer the manufacturer definitions.

http://msdn.microsof...bedded.81).aspx

LDM data partition: 0x42
Recovery partition: 0x27
Recognized OEM partition: 0x12, 0x84, 0xDE, 0xFE, 0xA0


At given quest both 17 and 27 works fine.
Setup is aware of 27. Some OEM manufacturer use this as recovery partition.

It depends what you like to do inside a running windows.

0x12, 0x17 hidden after boot, no letter assignable
0x27 hidden after boot, diskpart can asssign a letter nontheless
 

SSD is indeed a game changer

Using XP I would choose a SSD manufactorer with a windows mainternance tool.
I'm using Samsung SSD at XP.
 

I'm not entirely sure I should use 07 either

Yes, use 07 por a NTFS partition.
 

Switching constantly to grub4dos can be tiresome.

Setting ID and active are written to MBR.
Not the best idea at a SSD at each boot. How often do you reboot to other OS?

May Windows 7 access the XP partition? The drive letter is removed at diskpart by default.
Bootmgr / ntldr are sufficient at given request so far.

#11
Dogway

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yes, I bought a samsung 840 for the same reason, the software, but that only solves half the equation for SSD on XP, so I leave the XP partition visible to 7 so it can do the trimming, etc in background.

 

 

Setting ID and active are written to MBR.
Not the best idea at a SSD at each boot. How often do you reboot to other OS?

May Windows 7 access the XP partition? The drive letter is removed at diskpart by default.
Bootmgr / ntldr are sufficient at given request so far.

 

 

I meant that for the installation, I would like to use the diskpart hide/unhide "commands" so I don't have to reboot, insert grub4dos, and all everytime I need it on my above procedure. I would think this is only necessary at install? For daily use, boot to 7, etc I don't need to hide or unhide anything, or set IDs right? I will start booting to 7 like 3 or 4 times a week, and more often over time I hope, as it will serve as my transition until XP dies.


Edited by Dogway, 15 November 2013 - 04:44 PM.


#12
cdob

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yes, I bought a samsung 840 for the same reason,

Congratulations.
 

the software, but that only solves half the equation for SSD on XP, so I leave the XP partition visible to 7 so it can do the trimming, etc in background.

Which chipset do you use? There are supported chipset driver.
http://www.samsung.c.../downloads.html
http://www.samsung.c...ation_Guide.pdf
You may TRIM the SSD at XP. There is no need to do this at Windows 7, of course you are free to do so.
XP IDE mode is supported too, given this condition

The Performance Optimization feature relies on the ATA PASS THROUGH feature to pass the TRIM command to the SSD. This feature may be disabled by Windows XP/2003 if your SSD is less than 137GB in size. Microsoft provides a hot fix for this issue at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/934205.

 

For daily use, boot to 7, etc I don't need to hide or unhide anything, or set IDs right?

Yes, don't hide, unhide or set ID at daily use.

Which first bootmanger do you use finally? Ntldr or bootmgr?
Bootmgr makes more sense in the future.
http://support.micro...kb/100525/en-us

The system partition ... must be a primary partition that has been marked active.

Primary active partition is about 30 years old and valid still today.

Some choices:
Windows 7 partition active: copy ntldr, boot.ini, ntdetect.com and adjust \boot\bcd

XP partiton partition active: add Windows 7 boot files and adjust partition boot code and adjust \boot\bcdCODE]bcdboot.exe %SystemDrive%\windows /s M: /v
bootsect.exe /nt60 M: /force

BCDedit.exe /create {ntldr} /d "Boot XP"
rem BCDedit.exe /set {ntldr} device partition=D:
BCDedit.exe /set {ntldr} device boot
BCDedit.exe /set {ntldr} path \ntldr
BCDedit.exe /displayorder {ntldr} /addlast[/code]

#13
Dogway

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I recall reading that XP only supports TRIM through a hack (using the software though) *and* on demand. Meaning that I should execute the TRIM command quite oftenly and still wonder if the hack worked. I'm not sure if XP can do background GC, but I guess not, that's why I let 7 see XP partition, so it can take its idle time to do background GC.
I use a Z87 chipset. If I'm on AHCI I don't need that hotfix right? The SSD is a samsung 840 Pro 128Gb so it's smaller than 137Gb.

I will use 7's bootmgr, that's how jaclaz explained it (drop the XP boot files previously to 7's partition, then bootmgr imports settings). You said; "Not the best idea at a SSD at each boot. How often do you reboot to other OS?", so I thought that at each boot (reboot to other OS on daily use) I had to change the ID's or hide/unhide. My intention was to find a (safe) replacement for grub4dos hide/unhide commands, so I don't need to switch constantly between the 7 and grub4dos CD at install, a real pain.



#14
bphlpt

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The way I understood it, was that once you have both OS and the boot manager set up, that you leave both partitions set to id 07, both unhidden, and go about booting to and using whichever OS you wish.  I think you only need to worry about hiding and changing id's during the OS install process.  (Also during OS updates?? Maybe not. I'm not sure.)  I think that cdob's comment - "Not the best idea at a SSD at each boot." - referred to your comment about - "Switching constantly to grub4dos" - but I could be wrong.

 

Cheers and Regards


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#15
Dogway

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Ah thank you, that's what I initially had on mind, so it's fine.

I also was struggling about if I had to enable back XP partition (1st partition which remained hidden while installed 7 on 2nd partition) at the end of my procedure or not. Later I unhide XP partition from inside 7, but I'm not sure if that has any correlation with ID's. Ultimately both partitions need to be unhidden at boot level so they can be accessed indistinctly, only that the 2nd partition (7's) must be hidden (without letter) at OS level in XP.



#16
bphlpt

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..., only that the 2nd partition (7's) must be hidden (without letter) at OS level in XP.

 

Sorry, I'm confused.  Why must either partition ever be hidden except during OS install?

 

Cheers and Regards


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#17
Dogway

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sorry, not "must", technically speaking, I was obeying to my above setup diagram. I want it hidden at OS level since I don't want to bother with the other OS partition at any time.



#18
cdob

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I recall reading that XP only supports TRIM through a hack (using the software though) *and* on demand. Meaning that I should execute the TRIM command quite oftenly and still wonder if the hack worked.

Which hack do you refer to? As far as I know, there is no way to enable live running TRIM at XP.
Given the Magician software depends on usage. I'm using Performance Optimization every couple of month.
 

I use a Z87 chipset. If I'm on AHCI I don't need that hotfix right?

Yes, there is no need to update the driver atapi.sys at AHCI mode.

However the chipset manufacturer dosn't provide XP AHCI drivers.
You may try a modded driver package at own risk http://www.msfn.org/...d-raid-drivers/
 

Later I unhide XP partition from inside 7, but I'm not sure if that has any correlation with ID's.

At windows 7 diskpart:
set the XP partition ID 7 to unhide this partition.

Ultimately both partitions need to be unhidden at boot level so they can be accessed indistinctly, only that the 2nd partition (7's) must be hidden (without letter) at OS level in XP.

Yes, both partitions are unhidden.
And remove the windows 7 partition drive letter at running XP.

#19
Dogway

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No, live running TRIM is not possible, on demand TRIM is but using the software, since TRIM ability is not originally included in XP it is performed through a hack, through the ATA interface (ATA PASS command?) or something, can't tell you exactly how, I'm looking for the page I read that but can't find. That's why although it is not critical, I chose to let 7 do some trimming while I'm booted into this OS. It seems the SSD itself does some GC on its own, is not as fast as TRIM, but it's something.

Thanks for fernando's modded drivers, I already had everything downloaded for XP, I guess 7 doesn't need the drivers to be slipstreamed right?

Another thing I wondered last night is if I need to start from scratch. I ask because before I could just drop my past nlite image and use it as a base for including some drivers in nlite, that's possible, but maybe that was before including the driverspack, which uses another software and is advised to be used at the end, it seems to intercept the nlite chain. It adds some files to the OEM folder. There's also a file on $OEM$ folder called cmdlines.txt with "rundll32 advpack.dll,LaunchINFSection nLite.inf,U". I'm not sure if I need to rebuild the driverspack as well. I might do it as well while updating some packs.

 


 

Later I unhide XP partition from inside 7, but I'm not sure if that has any correlation with ID's.

At windows 7 diskpart:
set the XP partition ID 7 to unhide this partition.
 

 

Is that before or after I (unhide) assign letter to XP partition? I say because if I do that previous to boot, XP partition can be auto-assigned a letter which is undesirable, specially before 7 install (and where by all means 7 should only see one partition to avoid the creation of the 100Mb partition). If later I can give a letter with diskpart though, not sure what to do here.


Edited by Dogway, 17 November 2013 - 03:01 PM.


#20
cdob

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I chose to let 7 do some trimming while I'm booted into this OS.

Windows 7 TRIM the windows 7 partition. It won't TRIM the XP partition automatically.
TRIM informs the SSD firmware a storage space is deleted.
If you intent to TRIM the XP partition at Windows 7, use the Magican software too.
 

It seems the SSD itself does some GC on its own, is not as fast as TRIM, but it's something.

Yes, and you won't recognise a difference in real world, if you don't TRIM manually the next months.
 

Thanks for fernando's modded drivers, I already had everything downloaded for XP,

The XP AHCI driver may work or fail at this hardware.
Choose a hardware with XP chipset driver manufacturer support.
 

I guess 7 doesn't need the drivers to be slipstreamed right?

Yes, no need to integrate drivers.
 

Another thing I wondered last night is if I need to start from scratch. I ask because before I could just drop my past nlite image and use it as a base for including some drivers in nlite, that's possible, but maybe that was before including the driverspack, which uses another software and is advised to be used at the end, it seems to intercept the nlite chain. It adds some files to the OEM folder. There's also a file on $OEM$ folder called cmdlines.txt with "rundll32 advpack.dll,LaunchINFSection nLite.inf,U". I'm not sure if I need to rebuild the driverspack as well. I might do it as well while updating some packs.

Mixing driverpacks and nlite massstorage drivers are not supported and is asking for driver conflicts.
Don't do this.
 

Is that before or after I (unhide) assign letter to XP partition?

Do this from the installed Windows 7.
If it's hidden, you can't assign a letter.

#21
Dogway

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I chose to let 7 do some trimming while I'm booted into this OS.

Windows 7 TRIM the windows 7 partition. It won't TRIM the XP partition automatically.
TRIM informs the SSD firmware a storage space is deleted.
If you intent to TRIM the XP partition at Windows 7, use the Magican software too.

 

 

By that standard a data SSD will never be object of TRIM? that sounds strange. I would say 7 uses TRIM on all SSD volumes it sees, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

Is that before or after I (unhide) assign letter to XP partition?

Do this from the installed Windows 7.
If it's hidden, you can't assign a letter.

 

I see, so diskpart "inside" 7, from a cmd box.

 

I found all key drivers for XP on my hardware, I did a research before buying everything. Hope everything is fine. I would believe I included all driver packs except storage in driverspack, so that should be fine.


Edited by Dogway, 17 November 2013 - 05:15 PM.


#22
cdob

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By that standard a data SSD will never be object of TRIM? that sounds strange. I would say 7 uses TRIM on all SSD volumes it sees, but correct me if I'm wrong.

http://en.wikipedia....rim_(computing)

A Trim command (commonly typeset as TRIM) allows an operating system to inform a solid-state drive (SSD) which blocks of data are no longer considered in use and can be wiped internally.

If you delte a file, Windows 7 informs the SSD about this.
The relating blocks are free to use by the SSD firmware.

If you delete a file at running XP and boot Windows 7 next:
Windows 7 dosn't know about a previously delteted files and dosn't inform the SSD.
The XP partition is not trimmed that way.

Still at running Windows 7:
if you delete a file at XP partition, this file space is trimmed.
 

Hope everything is fine.

Yes, the drivers should work. The fun starts here.

#23
bphlpt

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By that standard a data SSD will never be object of TRIM? that sounds strange. I would say 7 uses TRIM on all SSD volumes it sees, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As cdob has now explained, your misunderstanding, and mine, was in the use of the word sees.  If you change it to uses, then to paraphrase cdob

 

~"If you use Windows 7 to delete a file on any partition, then Windows 7 will inform the SSD and that file's space will be trimmed."~

 

Thanks for the clarification cdob!

 

Cheers and Regards


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#24
Dogway

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I thought it would have been kind of defragmenting. Whatever OS can access the "fragmented" table and thus execute TRIM on that. A passive process.

So XP is only able to allow the SSD to do GC, which this time indeed is a passive process... Still, if 7 doesn't see the XP partition will it be able to do the GC? meaning does GC only requires the SSD to be turned on or needs the intervention of an OS?



#25
Dogway

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The interesting thing is that what the Magician Software seems to do is an on demand TRIM, if that is so, then TRIM is not a real time thing at all, and the data to be trimmed must be hold somewhere (SSD?) meanwhile, in that case my theory would apply.






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