Dogway

Windows7 and SSD (no 100mb partition)

32 posts in this topic

..., only that the 2nd partition (7's) must be hidden (without letter) at OS level in XP.

Sorry, I'm confused. Why must either partition ever be hidden except during OS install?

Cheers and Regards

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sorry, not "must", technically speaking, I was obeying to my above setup diagram. I want it hidden at OS level since I don't want to bother with the other OS partition at any time.

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I recall reading that XP only supports TRIM through a hack (using the software though) *and* on demand. Meaning that I should execute the TRIM command quite oftenly and still wonder if the hack worked.

Which hack do you refer to? As far as I know, there is no way to enable live running TRIM at XP.

Given the Magician software depends on usage. I'm using Performance Optimization every couple of month.

I use a Z87 chipset. If I'm on AHCI I don't need that hotfix right?

Yes, there is no need to update the driver atapi.sys at AHCI mode.

However the chipset manufacturer dosn't provide XP AHCI drivers.

You may try a modded driver package at own risk http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/107504-integration-of-intels-sata-ahci-and-raid-drivers/

Later I unhide XP partition from inside 7, but I'm not sure if that has any correlation with ID's.

At windows 7 diskpart:

set the XP partition ID 7 to unhide this partition.

Ultimately both partitions need to be unhidden at boot level so they can be accessed indistinctly, only that the 2nd partition (7's) must be hidden (without letter) at OS level in XP.

Yes, both partitions are unhidden.

And remove the windows 7 partition drive letter at running XP.

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No, live running TRIM is not possible, on demand TRIM is but using the software, since TRIM ability is not originally included in XP it is performed through a hack, through the ATA interface (ATA PASS command?) or something, can't tell you exactly how, I'm looking for the page I read that but can't find. That's why although it is not critical, I chose to let 7 do some trimming while I'm booted into this OS. It seems the SSD itself does some GC on its own, is not as fast as TRIM, but it's something.

Thanks for fernando's modded drivers, I already had everything downloaded for XP, I guess 7 doesn't need the drivers to be slipstreamed right?

Another thing I wondered last night is if I need to start from scratch. I ask because before I could just drop my past nlite image and use it as a base for including some drivers in nlite, that's possible, but maybe that was before including the driverspack, which uses another software and is advised to be used at the end, it seems to intercept the nlite chain. It adds some files to the OEM folder. There's also a file on $OEM$ folder called cmdlines.txt with "rundll32 advpack.dll,LaunchINFSection nLite.inf,U". I'm not sure if I need to rebuild the driverspack as well. I might do it as well while updating some packs.



Later I unhide XP partition from inside 7, but I'm not sure if that has any correlation with ID's.

At windows 7 diskpart:
set the XP partition ID 7 to unhide this partition.

Is that before or after I (unhide) assign letter to XP partition? I say because if I do that previous to boot, XP partition can be auto-assigned a letter which is undesirable, specially before 7 install (and where by all means 7 should only see one partition to avoid the creation of the 100Mb partition). If later I can give a letter with diskpart though, not sure what to do here.

Edited by Dogway
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I chose to let 7 do some trimming while I'm booted into this OS.

Windows 7 TRIM the windows 7 partition. It won't TRIM the XP partition automatically.

TRIM informs the SSD firmware a storage space is deleted.

If you intent to TRIM the XP partition at Windows 7, use the Magican software too.

It seems the SSD itself does some GC on its own, is not as fast as TRIM, but it's something.

Yes, and you won't recognise a difference in real world, if you don't TRIM manually the next months.

Thanks for fernando's modded drivers, I already had everything downloaded for XP,

The XP AHCI driver may work or fail at this hardware.

Choose a hardware with XP chipset driver manufacturer support.

I guess 7 doesn't need the drivers to be slipstreamed right?

Yes, no need to integrate drivers.

Another thing I wondered last night is if I need to start from scratch. I ask because before I could just drop my past nlite image and use it as a base for including some drivers in nlite, that's possible, but maybe that was before including the driverspack, which uses another software and is advised to be used at the end, it seems to intercept the nlite chain. It adds some files to the OEM folder. There's also a file on $OEM$ folder called cmdlines.txt with "rundll32 advpack.dll,LaunchINFSection nLite.inf,U". I'm not sure if I need to rebuild the driverspack as well. I might do it as well while updating some packs.

Mixing driverpacks and nlite massstorage drivers are not supported and is asking for driver conflicts.

Don't do this.

Is that before or after I (unhide) assign letter to XP partition?

Do this from the installed Windows 7.

If it's hidden, you can't assign a letter.

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I chose to let 7 do some trimming while I'm booted into this OS.

Windows 7 TRIM the windows 7 partition. It won't TRIM the XP partition automatically.

TRIM informs the SSD firmware a storage space is deleted.

If you intent to TRIM the XP partition at Windows 7, use the Magican software too.

By that standard a data SSD will never be object of TRIM? that sounds strange. I would say 7 uses TRIM on all SSD volumes it sees, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Is that before or after I (unhide) assign letter to XP partition?

Do this from the installed Windows 7.

If it's hidden, you can't assign a letter.

I see, so diskpart "inside" 7, from a cmd box.

I found all key drivers for XP on my hardware, I did a research before buying everything. Hope everything is fine. I would believe I included all driver packs except storage in driverspack, so that should be fine.

Edited by Dogway
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By that standard a data SSD will never be object of TRIM? that sounds strange. I would say 7 uses TRIM on all SSD volumes it sees, but correct me if I'm wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_(computing)

A Trim command (commonly typeset as TRIM) allows an operating system to inform a solid-state drive (SSD) which blocks of data are no longer considered in use and can be wiped internally.

If you delte a file, Windows 7 informs the SSD about this.

The relating blocks are free to use by the SSD firmware.

If you delete a file at running XP and boot Windows 7 next:

Windows 7 dosn't know about a previously delteted files and dosn't inform the SSD.

The XP partition is not trimmed that way.

Still at running Windows 7:

if you delete a file at XP partition, this file space is trimmed.

Hope everything is fine.

Yes, the drivers should work. The fun starts here.
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By that standard a data SSD will never be object of TRIM? that sounds strange. I would say 7 uses TRIM on all SSD volumes it sees, but correct me if I'm wrong.

As cdob has now explained, your misunderstanding, and mine, was in the use of the word sees. If you change it to uses, then to paraphrase cdob

~"If you use Windows 7 to delete a file on any partition, then Windows 7 will inform the SSD and that file's space will be trimmed."~

Thanks for the clarification cdob!

Cheers and Regards

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I thought it would have been kind of defragmenting. Whatever OS can access the "fragmented" table and thus execute TRIM on that. A passive process.

So XP is only able to allow the SSD to do GC, which this time indeed is a passive process... Still, if 7 doesn't see the XP partition will it be able to do the GC? meaning does GC only requires the SSD to be turned on or needs the intervention of an OS?

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The interesting thing is that what the Magician Software seems to do is an on demand TRIM, if that is so, then TRIM is not a real time thing at all, and the data to be trimmed must be hold somewhere (SSD?) meanwhile, in that case my theory would apply.

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I thought it would have been kind of defragmenting.

The files at a SSD are major fragmented. Yes, this is good. Ignore this.

Whatever OS can access the "fragmented" table and thus execute TRIM on that.

I don't understand this.

No OS can "fragment" the SSD internally.

Only the SSD firmware can access the blocks inside the SSD.

GC

This is SSD firmware internally too. No OS is involved.

Still, if 7 doesn't see the XP partition will it be able to do the GC?

It's OS independed. Yes, GC is active.

The interesting thing is that what the Magician Software seems to do is an on demand TRIM, if that is so, then TRIM is not a real time thing at all, and the data to be trimmed must be hold somewhere (SSD?) meanwhile, in that case my theory would apply.

TRIM is real time issue, if the OS supports TRIM: Windows 7

In addition you may TRIM on demand using the Magician Software: Windows XP and Windows 7

Real world advice:

ignore TRIM theory. You may measure a difference, won't recognice one in real world.

Use the SSD and be happy.

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But if TRIM is a real time task (ie. when files are handled), what is an on demand TRIM supposed to do? It is passive (real time at background) or active (on demand). If you can execute TRIM on demand through software, it would well accomplish the same goal through 7's internal (and automatic/passive) TRIM, don't you think?

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what is an on demand TRIM supposed to do? It is passive (real time at background) or active (on demand).

It's real time on demand.

Run Performance Optimizations on demand, the software trims at real time next: runs some minutes

Most likely the Magician Software crawls the NTFS MFT and calculates unoccupied blocks.

And informs the SSD firmware: this blocks are free to use

If you can execute TRIM on demand through software, it would well accomplish the same goal through 7's internal (and automatic/passive) TRIM, don't you think?

Yes, I think so.

Contrary there are other user experiences

http://www.anushand.com/2013/02/how-to-improve-your-samsung-840-series.html

http://superuser.com/questions/620917/is-there-a-way-to-schedule-samsung-magician-ssd-optimization

Windows 7 is supposed to run the TRIM command automatically, but when I run the performance optimization in the Samsung Magician software, I see a vast improvement especially in random write operations (up by 30-40% immediately after optimization).

Performance Optimizations seems to be useful at Windows 7 too.

I don't know what Performance Optimization does actually.

Again: you may measure the difference, but won't recognise this at real work

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I see, so the "Performance Optimizations" actually "do things" that either XP or 7 don't. So at practice using XP or 7 is indifferent for the end user.
This SSD technology seems rather immature still, nobody knows what really is what and what should be done, actually I could say the same about computers. It looks like a giant mess of great and sometimes not so great ideas that somewhat made their way to surprisingly function together and not break apart.

You said that what Performance Optimizations does is run some minutes being TRIM aware, so it's more a kind of prevention than say "fixing".

But the next quote says that after applying Performance Optimizations the SSD runs 30%-40% better, kinda fixing past degradation.

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This SSD technology seems rather immature still

As for a average end user it's pretty fine. Given a decent SSD, use it and ignore technical details.

It runs smoothly in real world.

You said that what Performance Optimizations does is run some minutes being TRIM aware, so it's more a kind of prevention than say "fixing".

No, it's fixing some previous glitches.

But the next quote says that after applying Performance Optimizations the SSD runs 30%-40% better, kinda fixing past degradation.

No, not the SSD runs better at all. A special feature works better.

Value this feature for daily work: random write operations are seldom at a average end user.

A average end user won't recognise any change.

You have to decide at Windows 7 with TRIM: it's worth to run Performance Optimizations at all?

Why take the time, if there is no real benefit after?

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