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Can't install Win98 on Dell Latitude D630

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#1
KRH

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I'm trying to install Win 98SE to a 10 gig partition at the beginning of a 1 terabyte drive from a folder on that partion on my Dell Latitude D630 laptop with an Intel 2.6 GHz Core Duo CPU and 8 Gigs of RAM. Everything goes well until the first reboot after all the files are copied, then I get an insufficient memory message, advising me to remove excess files from my config and autoexec filies (which are basically empty). Granted that 8 Gigs of RAM is a lot more than Win 98 can address, but shouldn't it be able to access what it needs? There's only one favorite old program that I need use it for (a midi sequencer), so I'm not too worried about drivers, etc., I just want to get it installed. Is the CPU a problem? Am I beating a dead horse or is there some trick to doing it?

 

Edit: Somebody please delete my extra posts. When I tried to submit this, I just got an interminable spinning throbber in my tab, so I thought it wasn't working and I can't figure out how to delete a post


Edited by KRH, 13 February 2014 - 05:37 PM.



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#2
dencorso

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Done. You cannot delete any posts by yourself here, BTW.

 

There sure are ways of doing what you want... search the forum and read. It's all around you.



#3
rloew

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The "insufficient memory message" is a very confusing message related to the way Windows 9x manages memory.
The Kernel reserves a certain amount of memory to handle the RAM memory management tables. If you have too much RAM (>1.15GB),
these tables don't fit so you get the message. You need to reduce memory to 1GB, use a workaround or use my Patch if you want to use more of this Memory.

A 1TB Hard Drive would be SATA which is not properly supported by Windows 9X. I have a Patch for this problem also.
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#4
Tommy

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The CPU is definitely compatible, but I believe you have to set it to one core with the native Win98 install. I saw someone say no, but I'd disable dual core just to be on the safe side. I've never been successful getting Windows 98 going on a computer 2007 or newer. It usually hangs after the last the second part of the installation. Personally I'd just go with Windows 2000 if you can because it's much like Windows 98 but it runs on almost anything, at least up until about 2010 and then you might start having a few problems getting drivers for it. But if you can get Windows 98 going on this beast, hats off to you. If you can, I'd break the RAM down to just 1GB while you attempt to install it, if it at all possible.


Daily running Windows 2000 Pro SP4 and Windows 98

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#5
KRH

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Update: I thought I had it going for awhile. I did limit the amount of RAM available by adding the line, "MaxPhysPage=30000" to the [386Enh] section of the system.ini file and after that, Windows installation finished and it opened to the desktop. Unfortunately, after I shut down, it wouldn't boot again. At the Windows splash screen, the screen just went blank. Reinstalling Windows ended in exactly the same result.

 

Unfortunately, I can't use Win 2k, an OS I like, because my program won't work in it. I'm thinking of trying Win ME, an OS I don't like. My program would work, but I don't expect the installation problems to be very different.

 

rloew, I'd like to try your patch for the SATA problem. At a certain point while I was trying to get Windows installed, I got an error message to which I didn't pay close enough attention and which I can't figure how to bring back up again. It said something about the PCI controller, 64 bit vs 32 bit, real mode vs compatibility mode, etc. I don't know, I just can't remember the details. I believe it said that when Windows restarted, compatibility mode would be applied, but nothing happened. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that that message might have been related to the SATA issue. May I PM you?



#6
KRH

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The CPU is definitely compatible, but I believe you have to set it to one core with the native Win98 install. I saw someone say no, but I'd disable dual core just to be on the safe side. I've never been successful getting Windows 98 going on a computer 2007 or newer. It usually hangs after the last the second part of the installation. Personally I'd just go with Windows 2000 if you can because it's much like Windows 98 but it runs on almost anything, at least up until about 2010 and then you might start having a few problems getting drivers for it. But if you can get Windows 98 going on this beast, hats off to you. If you can, I'd break the RAM down to just 1GB while you attempt to install it, if it at all possible.

How do I disable dual core? Is that something that could be applied to only one OS on one partition?



#7
LoneCrusader

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How do I disable dual core? Is that something that could be applied to only one OS on one partition?


This is not necessary. Windows 9x can only see and use one core; any others are simply ignored. I have run Windows 95 on a Dual-Core machine without any need to make such a change.

BTW, if you are committed to doing this I highly recommend rloew's various patches. They work 100% and he is always helpful if you need support. :thumbup


Edited by LoneCrusader, 14 February 2014 - 08:50 PM.


#8
rloew

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rloew, I'd like to try your patch for the SATA problem. At a certain point while I was trying to get Windows installed, I got an error message to which I didn't pay close enough attention and which I can't figure how to bring back up again. It said something about the PCI controller, 64 bit vs 32 bit, real mode vs compatibility mode, etc. I don't know, I just can't remember the details. I believe it said that when Windows restarted, compatibility mode would be applied, but nothing happened. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that that message might have been related to the SATA issue. May I PM you?


Can you boot Windows in Safe Mode?
If not, then the problem is probably elsewhere.

If the message is related to the Hard Drive Controller, it will not reappear. The Protected Mode Driver is permanently disabled. To reenable it, you need to edit the Registry. Search for a Value called "NOIDE" and delete it.

If the "NOIDE" value doesn't exist then you will not be in Compatability Mode when running Normal Windows.
In this case the SATA Patch probably will help.
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#9
KRH

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I reinstalled windows, paying closer attention this time to what happens. During the initial phase, copying files, I got a couple of routine messages about non FAT32 partitions that I wouldn't be able to access later, and continued on. On the first reboot, of course it crashed, but after making  the entry in system.ini, installation continued. I got the message, "Windows did not detect any real mode PC card drivers", and asking me if I wanted to search my system files for real mode drivers, to which I answered, "no". Finally, the desktop appeared. I immediately searched the registry for "NOIDE" but didn't find it. Then I checked Device Manager and found only 3 entries under "Computer", all with yellow marks. Checking properties for them returned these results:

 

keyboard-- "Windows can't specify the resources for this device"

Ports(Com and LPT)--Windows can't specify the resources for this device"

Mouse-- "This device is causing a resource conflict"

 

I tried rebooting and surprisingly, got back to the desktop. This time, the yellow marks were gone from the original 3 entries in Device Manager, and there were several new entries, all with red checks. Properties didn't show any problems. Another attempted reboot ended in failure, so I tried step by step confirmation boot, which led to windows opening with no error messages, but the red-checked entries in Device manager were all missing and the original 3 had their yellow marks back. Again, 1 or 2 successful reboots, failure. Thinking I would give up for the day, I put the computer back on the docking station, then decided to try it that way, booting again by using the step by step method (which I'm apparently able to use at any time). Windows immediately started looking for device drivers for the docking station itself and for the peripherals attached to it, such as keyboard and external monitor. The external monitor didn't work but the sea-green of the laptop desktop suddenly changed to the deep blue Win 98 screen. Device Manager still showed only the original 3 entries. Upon rebooting, the screen was back to sea-green, there were no more attempts by Windows to load device drivers, and still the 3 entries. But then I found that I was able to successfully re-start 6 or 8 times! I pushed my luck by shutting down completely and trying to restart, but it was back to square one. No go. All in all, it's just kind of chaotic situation.

 

A lot of Googling has conviced me that the SATA problem is no doub critical. An obvious solution would be to change my BIOS setting from ACHI to ATA, the only option available, but I don't want to do that for fear of trashing the other OS installations on my multi-boot system. In the final analysis, even If I could get Windows to open reliably, I don't think it would work for what I need. I didn't check for sound, but there was none when the desktop opened and I didn't see a sound card in Device Manager. Pretty hard to use my midi sequencer program without sound, and there's little hope of finding a driver. I didn't think drivers would be much of a problem, but they obviously are. Dell will be of no help since, by policy, they refuse to support any OS older or newer than the OEM version. I might try Win ME(nothing to lose), which is actually  newer than Win 2k. I might try installing Win 98 on my old Dell Inspiron 5000, which is currently running XP ok in spite of an apparently failing, soldered-on CMOS battery (judging by the fact that it won't hold it's BIOS settings). I might try VirtualBox in one of my Win 7 partitions. Win 98 sort of runs in MS Virtual PC on Win 7, even though it's not officially supported, but very, very poorly. (It's not officially supported in VirtualBox, either, but some people claim that it works fine.)



#10
rloew

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You cannot use AHCI with Windows 9x. Depending upon BIOS implementation you may get a Windows Protection Error before Drivers are even loaded. In any case there are no Drivers for AHCI.

ATA may work. If it supports "Legacy" Mode you can use it directly. It it only supports "Native" Mode you will need my SATA Patch.
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#11
KRH

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You cannot use AHCI with Windows 9x. Depending upon BIOS implementation you may get a Windows Protection Error before Drivers are even loaded. In any case there are no Drivers for AHCI.

ATA may work. If it supports "Legacy" Mode you can use it directly. It it only supports "Native" Mode you will need my SATA Patch.

As I understand it, ATA is the equivalent of "legacy" in my BIOS, but as I say, I'm afraid that switching to it at this point might completely ruin the other operating systems in my multi-boot system, which were all installed using AHCI. My main drive of one Terabyte includes two boot-able 64 bit Win 7 installations (one for special use) and one large, Bitlocker encrypted data partition formatted with exFat. My back-up drive (in the modular bay of my laptop) had exactly the same configuration except that the drive was only 500 Gigs. Since I have to set up the new 1 Terabyte drive I just acquired as the new backup, I thought I'd add the Win 98 partition at the beginning, clone the other partitions on the old drive over to the new one, then clone the whole thing back over, so that the drives would be equal in both size and structure. If I switch the BIOS setting to ATA in order to install and use Win 98 on the new drive and then boot to one of the Win 7 volumes on the other drive, I'm afraid it might spell disaster for that volume. I still have the old 500 Gig back-up drive set aside, and I might experiment with that, running it as the only drive in the machine, but even that makes me a little nervous. I'd hate to lose my backup before I've successfully set up the new one, especially with the chance of Win 98 ever working adequately even if it is properly installed being so slight.

 

I just remembered that I have another much smaller drive that I could use to experiment with. That might take awhile. The results should be interesting, so I'll post them back here.



#12
rloew

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You can try installing Windows 98 on the small Drive first to see if it works and is worthwhile to risk your backup.

You do not need to place the Windows 98 Partition at the beginning unless you do not have a Patch for the 137GB Limitation.
Moving your Windows 7 Partitions higher up on the Drive may cause problems.
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#13
KRH

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I've found that the simplest, most reliable way to set up a dual-boot (multi-boot) drive is to start with the oldest OS and add others sequentially. I've done that in the past with 98, ME, 2k, XP, and 7 on other computers  and it always goes smoothly. What I'll do is install Win 98 first, then Win 7. That sets up the boot files. Then I'll clone over my existing platform with XXClone, which won't touch the boot files unless instructed to do so. I could start by just cloning my platform to the empty partition and then using XXClone's "Cool Tools" to make it boot-able, but that always opens a can of worms.

 

I've decided to try 3 experiments: I'll start by trying Win 98 in VirtualBox in one of my existing Win 7 partitions. If that works well enough to run my old programs, I won't have to go any farther. Then I'll try installing Win 98 with the BIOS set to ATA, switch it to AHCI to install Win 7, then back to ATA to see if one or the other (or, hopefully, both) continue to work. Finally, I'll do the same thing with Win ME. As I say, I'll report back on how it goes.



#14
dencorso

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I'll start by trying Win 98 in VirtualBox in one of my existing Win 7 partitions. If that works well enough to run my old programs [...]

 

It should. If not in VirtualBox, Virtual PC 2004, Virtual PC 2007 and Bochs are also good tries.
 

Then I'll try installing Win 98 with the BIOS set to ATA, switch it to AHCI to install Win 7, then back to ATA to see if one or the other (or, hopefully, both) continue to work.

 

That may only work by switching modes in BIOS at each boot, if at all.   :wacko:



#15
rloew

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If you are installing Windows 7, why switch to AHCI at all?
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#16
KRH

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Dencorso, I agree that it would be worthwhile trying those other options. Thanks for the suggestion. As for needing to switch BIOS modes at each boot, I won't know until I try. that's the whole point of experimenting. If Win 7 won't function normally in ATA mode even though I installed it in AHCI, I'll have to give up on adding a Win 98 partition. It would not be practical to switch every time and there would always be risk of everything getting screwed up.

 

rloew, I need to install Win 7 in AHCI because my existing platform, which I've worked long and hard to develop and which I will be cloning over, was originally installed in AHCI. My whole concern is being able to preserve that installation (actually, 2 installations on two separate partitions.) I wouldn't want to have to start over rebuilding my whole platform just to add Win 98. My understanding of the problem is that if an OS was installed in one or the other of the 2 modes and then that mode is changed, the OS might try to adapt in such a way that it can self-destruct. I need to find out if that's actually going to happen. (Really, although I'm very skeptical that it can work, I've become very curious about just what will happen, one way or another).



#17
rloew

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@KRH You said "install" Windows 7 which means from scratch. "Cloniing" is not the same as "installing".

Cloning may cause other issues particularly if you move or resize the Windows 7 Partitions or add Windows 98 in front.
It would depend on the cloning tools used.

If possible, you may want to leave the Windows 7 Partitions where they are and add the Windows 98 Partition after them on the Hard Drive.
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#18
KRH

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@KRH You said "install" Windows 7 which means from scratch. "Cloniing" is not the same as "installing".

Cloning may cause other issues particularly if you move or resize the Windows 7 Partitions or add Windows 98 in front.
It would depend on the cloning tools used.

If possible, you may want to leave the Windows 7 Partitions where they are and add the Windows 98 Partition after them on the Hard Drive.

I guess I didn't explain clearly what I do what I do when I "clone" a multi-boot drive to a second one. The first thing I do is to partition the drive and then install the appropriate OS "from scratch", sequentially, in each partition. I know from experience that the easiest, most effective way to do that is to add them in order, oldest first. That way, as each OS is installed, it sees the older operating systems on any preceding partitions and installs itself accordingly, so as to leave all partitions boot-able. No hassles. As I say, these are fresh installations, right out of the box, with no development. After everything is installed and the boot files are in order, all volumes will be bootable. Then I clone the appropriate, developed platform (with all files and programs) over to each partition from the original drive using XxClone. XxClone copies all files without touching the boot files. (It doesn't "mirror", it just copies files, so that the target volume is free of any fragmentation.) This erases any existing files (except the boot files) and replaces them. When that's done, I have a perfectly working, exact copy of my original drive. XxClone has the ability to make a drive boot-able, but if you use that for any one of multiple partitions, it will screw up the MBR, leaving only that one partition boot-able. That's why I both "install from scratch" and "clone". (Of course, for regular, routine backup after I have both drives in place, I just use XxClone.)

 

Anyway, I've already discovered that installing Win 98 with ATA enabled doesn't work any better than AHCI, so I'm going to stop beating that horse. I'd never find drivers for it anyway. (I would at least need sound.) There's not going to be a Win 98 partition. Now it's on to trying virtual Win 98 in various virtual environments, as suggested by dencorso. I'll report back on which seems to work the best for anyone interested.


Edited by KRH, 20 February 2014 - 03:15 AM.


#19
submix8c

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JFYI (oldish topic) http://www.msfn.org/...ation-software/


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#20
rloew

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Anyway, I've already discovered that installing Win 98 with ATA enabled doesn't work any better than AHCI, so I'm going to stop beating that horse. I'd never find drivers for it anyway. (I would at least need sound.) There's not going to be a Win 98 partition. Now it's on to trying virtual Win 98 in various virtual environments, as suggested by dencorso. I'll report back on which seems to work the best for anyone interested.

Your ATA Mode may be "Native" Mode rather than "Legacy" Mode. This would require my SATA Patch.
Unfortunately, I do not have a solution for sound.
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#21
KRH

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Thanks, submix8c. Interesting discussion.

 

Thanks, rloew. It's the problem with drivers, after all, that pretty much drives the nail in the coffin.



#22
KRH

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Well, I got Win 98SE running in Virtual PC 2007 in Win 7 and my old MIDI sequencing program seems to work fine. I haven't been able to get my old legacy games, such as Heretic, Doom, and Escape from Castle Wolfenstein, to work properly--they look like they're going to work but then they crash Windows--but I'll keep working on that and it's not so important, anyway. It's a good thing I have my second "special purpose" Win 7 partition for this purpose because VPC 2007 and Windows Virtual PC with XP Mode, which I use regularly, can't coexist.

 

Considering the difficulties I could expect using other virtual machines, judging by what I've read, I think I'll just stick with VPC 2007. Thanks to everyone here for your help. I haven't used this forum for awhile but I've always liked it. Win 98 users are the salt of the Earth! I'm glad to see that this forum doesn't require a designated "best answer", as so many others do, when there rarely is a single best answer.






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