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Windows NT 4 performance

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45 replies to this topic

#26
jaclaz

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@roytam

Sure :), I was pointing out only the obvious, i.e. things that at the time did not exist and could not therefore create issues.

A NT 4.00, on the hardware it was designed for was exceptionally stable (compared to later releases) possibly also because:

  1. the OS was simpler 
  2. the hardware was simpler
  3. the hardware was costing a lot of money and the manufacturers wrote good, simple, tested drivers, usually "tuned" for stability (being aimed to a professional only audience)

I will remind - in case someone not familiar with NT 4.00 - how a whole install of the operating system was smaller than a current video card driver only.

 

In my simplicity:

Less bytes=faster

Less bytes= (maybe) less functions, but surely less probabilities of conflicts/bugs/etc.

 

 

 

 

Only issue is that I want ntfs instead of fat.

 

It is not a "real" issue if your source has post SP3 integrated, though you will not be able to run CHKDSK "natively" from the NT, but will need to use the workaround (and the Win2K files) mentioned in the already given links.

 

Consider however that a "normal" install of NT needs around 110 Mb of disk space, let's roughly double it to around 250 to stay on the safe side and to allow some space for programs, which is well within the range of FAT16 volumes, and there is no real reason, on a laptop/single user machine to have the complexity of NTFS.

 

jaclaz




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#27
Flasche

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It is not a "real" issue if your source has post SP3 integrated, though you will not be able to run CHKDSK "natively" from the NT, but will need to use the workaround (and the Win2K files) mentioned in the already given links.

 

Consider however that a "normal" install of NT needs around 110 Mb of disk space, let's roughly double it to around 250 to stay on the safe side and to allow some space for programs, which is well within the range of FAT16 volumes, and there is no real reason, on a laptop/single user machine to have the complexity of NTFS.

 

jaclaz

 

My disk of NT 4 has service pack one. The only reason why I want ntfs is because of the 4 gig file size issue. (I bet there is a patch for that somewhere too -_- )



#28
jaclaz

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My disk of NT 4 has service pack one. The only reason why I want ntfs is because of the 4 gig file size issue. (I bet there is a patch for that somewhere too -_- )

Well, if you plan to EVER access the NTFS volume from *any* later NT based system you need AT LEAST SP3 (though you should have SP6, strongly advised) installed BEFORE accessing the volume from another later NT based OS or your NT 4.00 system won't be able to boot.
You may still want to make a decently small System partition (that can - as said - be FAT16) and have a separate storage one, which can be *anything*, even if it is accidentally converted, it won't prevent form booting (and allow th einstalling of the Service Pack to be able to re-access it).
Support for bigger than 4 Gb files on a FAT16 volume is - obviously - not something of use :whistle:.

You might need to refresh your knowledge on filesystems and their maximum sizes ;):
http://support.micro...kb/140365/en-us

jaclaz

#29
Flasche

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Well, if you plan to EVER access the NTFS volume from *any* later NT based system you need AT LEAST SP3 (though you should have SP6, strongly advised) installed BEFORE accessing the volume from another later NT based OS or your NT 4.00 system won't be able to boot.

 

The first thing I plan on doing is immediately updating to SP6a.

 

 

FAT16

 

Why Fat16 I was referring to Fat32. (In fact did fat 32 even exist during NT 4's time)

 

EDIT: FAT32 was introduced about a month before sp1 release of nt4 so I would guess it supports it.


Edited by Flasche, 16 April 2014 - 06:49 PM.


#30
Bakuchris

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Wow this topic is very interesting, this is making me interested of running Windows NT 4 lol.



#31
jaclaz

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Why Fat16 I was referring to Fat32. (In fact did fat 32 even exist during NT 4's time)
 
EDIT: FAT32 was introduced about a month before sp1 release of nt4 so I would guess it supports it.

Right dates :), wrong deduction :(.

NT 4.00 does NOT (natively) support FAT32, it was introduced in Windows 2000.

At the time there was a Commercial driver (by Sysinternals) to have FAT32 on NT 4.00, the same driver is available (in the free Read only version) and there is also another free driver, see here:
http://www.msfn.org/...driver-for-nt4/
though their stability/reliability is not well proved, and again, even with them, you simply cannot install to a FAT32 easily.

The OP in there never reported any result of the experiments he wanted to do. :(

jaclaz

#32
Flasche

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Right dates :), wrong deduction :(.


NT 4.00 does NOT (natively) support FAT32, it was introduced in Windows 2000.

At the time there was a Commercial driver (by Sysinternals) to have FAT32 on NT 4.00, the same driver is available (in the free Read only version) and there is also another free driver, see here:
http://www.msfn.org/...driver-for-nt4/
though their stability/reliability is not well proved, and again, even with them, you simply cannot install to a FAT32 easily.

The OP in there never reported any result of the experiments he wanted to do. :(

jaclaz

 

 

I guess that is why the setup failed when I formatted with fat32 :boring: . Well time to find the old HP format tool.



#33
jaclaz

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Well time to find the old HP format tool.

 

WHICH HP format tool? Be aware of the differences between version 2.00.006 A (6 Feb 04) and version version 2.1.8 A (17 May 04):

http://jaclaz.alterv...B/USBstick.html

if I recall correctly the second did not properly set the partition as active, and, JFYI ;):

http://reboot.pro/to...ub4dos/?p=38097

http://reboot.pro/to...river/?p=107741

 

 

 

WHY using it at all?

I mean :), to prepare the USB stick you can use a more recent tool like RMPREPUSB, which offers some added features.

 

jaclaz



#34
Flasche

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WHICH HP format tool? Be aware of the differences between version 2.00.006 A (6 Feb 04) and version version 2.1.8 A (17 May 04):

 

 

http://jaclaz.alterv...B/USBstick.html

if I recall correctly the second did not properly set the partition as active, and, JFYI ;):

http://reboot.pro/to...ub4dos/?p=38097

http://reboot.pro/to...river/?p=107741

 

 

 

WHY using it at all?

I mean :), to prepare the USB stick you can use a more recent tool like RMPREPUSB, which offers some added features.

 

jaclaz

 

 

That was the problem (besides having fat32 only) with my version of the HP format tool. Never heard of RMPREPUSB in my sheltered world but I'll take a look at it.



#35
ironman14

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It is not a "real" issue if your source has post SP3 integrated, though you will not be able to run CHKDSK "natively" from the NT, but will need to use the workaround (and the Win2K files) mentioned in the already given links.
 
Consider however that a "normal" install of NT needs around 110 Mb of disk space, let's roughly double it to around 250 to stay on the safe side and to allow some space for programs, which is well within the range of FAT16 volumes, and there is no real reason, on a laptop/single user machine to have the complexity of NTFS.
 
jaclaz

 
My disk of NT 4 has service pack one. The only reason why I want ntfs is because of the 4 gig file size issue. (I bet there is a patch for that somewhere too -_- )

Here is a link for creating your own NT 4 CD.
:http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/#nt4
It allows you to integrate updates such as IE6, WMP 7.1 etc. Also, you can add SPs to it, including SP6a. SP4+ of NT 4.0 contains support for up to 128 GB hard disks with NTFS partitions.

#36
pointertovoid

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Before thinking at W2k, you might check how much Ram you have. Below 256MB it slows down significantly (this improves without antivirus nor firewall, that is if the machine is offline), and 512MB are much better for it. That's a heavy difference with W95b (which I ran on 8MB and improved with 40MB) and Nt4 (similar needs to W95), and also with Me which is fine on 128MB. The processor must be faster for W2k as well: a small PIII is slow with W2k but very fast With W95-98-Me-Nt4. W2k is very different from Me!

 

If the machine is too small for W2k, the choice is more between Nt4 and Me, knowing that Nt4's Ntfs is safer, but anything else (dX9, Usb, driver management, installation, big disks...) is less archaic on Me.

 

Six Sp, large Ram... This all results from Nt4 being a professional and server OS.


Edited by pointertovoid, 17 April 2014 - 11:02 AM.


#37
Flasche

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Here is a link for creating your own NT 4 CD.

:http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/#nt4
It allows you to integrate updates such as IE6, WMP 7.1 etc. Also, you can add SPs to it, including SP6a. SP4+ of NT 4.0 contains support for up to 128 GB hard disks with NTFS partitions.

 

Thanks in the process now :thumbup.

 

EDIT:struggling to run final process (run.bat) because of 64 bit incapabilities. (Not on me computer for I still need to setup PosReady drive in that PC)


Edited by Flasche, 17 April 2014 - 05:22 PM.


#38
ironman14

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Here is a link for creating your own NT 4 CD.
:http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/#nt4
It allows you to integrate updates such as IE6, WMP 7.1 etc. Also, you can add SPs to it, including SP6a. SP4+ of NT 4.0 contains support for up to 128 GB hard disks with NTFS partitions.

 
Thanks in the process now :thumbup.
 
EDIT:struggling to run final process because of 64 bit incapabilities. (Not on me computer for I still need to setup PosReady drive in that PC)

Why would you use 64-bit hardware on NT 4.0?

#39
Flasche

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Why would you use 64-bit hardware on NT 4.0?

 

I'm not I really worded that bad, I meant to say I'm having trouble running the run.bat file to make the cd on my 64bit computer (vista). Sorry for confusion



#40
Flasche

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tried running windows nt 4 setup, but it asked for floppies. Since I dont have floppies anymore I did the /b command, but instead windows halted the setup to protect long file names. I tried using the file Lock ( lock / ) to allow direct disk access, but that failed. Anyway to override the file protection.


Edited by Flasche, 17 April 2014 - 11:13 PM.


#41
bearwindows

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1) As I try - it is impossible to perform an installation of NT4 (either via floppies, or winnt /b command) onto real hardware since ~ Pentium4 era motherboards due to some bugs in NT4 installer, I use cloning for it, so I install NT4 in virtual environment (qemu, vpc2004/2007 etc,), then clone it to real PC HDD.

Note that you must use Alter's Uniata driver - you have no other alternartve since atapi.sys, even from SP6 have no support for UDMA transfer modes, SATA drives and driver larger than 137 Gb.

2) It is possible to boot NT4 from FAT32 partition, you need read/write fat32.sys driver (f.e. from Winternals Fat32 for NT4 or ERD Commander 2000) + ntldr, ntdetect.com from Windows 2000/XP/2003

detaIls and downloads are here - http://bearwindows.z...au/winnt4.htm#2



#42
ironman14

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tried running windows nt 4 setup, but it asked for floppies. Since I dont have floppies anymore I did the /b command, but instead windows halted the setup to protect long file names. I tried using the file Lock ( lock / ) to allow direct disk access, but that failed. Anyway to override the file protection.

As far as I know, NT 4 never came on floppies. It was the start of bootable CDs. When you made your custom CD, did you use extra software? If so, did you select the 'bootable' option?

I'm afraid I can't help you too much there. My knowledge is more about software, and I don't know too much about hardware.

Edited by ironman14, 18 April 2014 - 06:07 AM.


#43
bearwindows

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As far as I know, NT 4 never came on floppies.
 
image.jpg
 
NT4 Workstation or Server came as set of 3 floppies + CD, so if your PC can boot from CD (most PCs starting ~1997 year can boot, Pentium 1 or later) you can install it  from CD, if not - you can start installation process from floppies and in this case CD was also needed when file copying process started on, since floppies contains only minimal setup shell package.


#44
Flasche

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1) As I try - it is impossible to perform an installation of NT4 (either via floppies, or winnt /b command) onto real hardware since ~ Pentium4 era motherboards due to some bugs in NT4 installer, I use cloning for it, so I install NT4 in virtual environment (qemu, vpc2004/2007 etc,), then clone it to real PC HDD.

Note that you must use Alter's Uniata driver - you have no other alternartve since atapi.sys, even from SP6 have no support for UDMA transfer modes, SATA drives and driver larger than 137 Gb.

2) It is possible to boot NT4 from FAT32 partition, you need read/write fat32.sys driver (f.e. from Winternals Fat32 for NT4 or ERD Commander 2000) + ntldr, ntdetect.com from Windows 2000/XP/2003

detaIls and downloads are here - http://bearwindows.z...au/winnt4.htm#2

 

Never thought about cloning it over good suggestion. I'm currently setting it up a NT 4 with updates in vmware. Good to know that there is a Sata patch for I will need it. I already like its speed.



#45
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Hmm seem to be stuck. I have instructions on how to convert a VM to a PhysMachine http://www.howtoforg...ical-machine-p2 , and I also have instructions to disassemble my net-book to access the hard-drive http://www.dalekelle...Disassembly.pdf . I can remove the hard-drive from my net-book with a little time, but there must be an easier way to do it then what I plan. Any other way to access the harddrive, rather usb, or usb (flashdrive).



#46
bearwindows

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How to install NT onto new pc (assumed that NT must installed in primary partition, mostly C:\)

 

1) I need to access real hdd and extract NT files from virtual hdd image to real hdd, I can use for it:

 

a. preinstalled another Windows OS, f.e. XP/2000/2003

(you could also install NT into the same partition as another Windows OS, however you must either delete "Program Files" directory from NT image or try to mix it with "Program FIles" from XP/2000/2003)

and make sure that main OS directory differs - NT (mostly \WINNT dir) and XP/2000/2003 (mostly \WINDOWS dir)

 

 b. boot WinPE shell either from LAN, USB or from CD/DVD

 

2) extract NT image to real hdd, I use winimage tool for it.

 

3) need to add newline into boot.ini, f.e. this one:

 [operating systems]

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINNT="Windows NT Workstation Version 4.00"

 

4) need to make NT master boot record, it is needed when NT is only one OS installed

(you could use XP/2000/2003 boot CD Recovery Console ( http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314058 ) for it, commands are FIXBOOT, FIXMBR)


Edited by bearwindows, Yesterday, 09:56 PM.





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