Advice on a 64bit system upgrade

[Dave-H]

I guess the only way to find out if I can deactivate and uninstall Windows 8.1 from my netbook and then use the same disks to do a new install and activation on another machine is to actually try it! I still think I'll go with Windows 8 as long as Supermicro come back and tell me it will be OK. Otherwise I'll look on eBay for some Windows 7 FPP disks. That's how I got my Windows 2000 to Windows XP upgrade!

[Dave-H]

Well I got a reply from Supermicro.

Not unexpectedly they just said that the X7DVL-E hasn't been in production for many years and (of course) was never tested with Windows 8.

That doesn't mean that it won't work with it of course. My present board, an X5DAE, was never tested with Windows 98, but works fine with it!

I have asked them if they have any other recommended hardware for what I want to do.

[dencorso]

It goes without saying that, even in situations where including a 9x boot into the multiboot setup is not feasible, it's generally possible to include an MS-DOS 7.10 boot (to bare metal) in almost any multiboot setup (which uses to be my 4th boot option), and I do, of course, recommend it!

Changing subjects, since you're set on assembling a new machine, consider buying, say, a couple of 512-byte sectored SATA HDDs, while they're still available:

 

About 4 months ago I bought a pair of WD2002FAEX and then, 3 months ago, one further WD1502FAEX, all of them 512-bytes sectored WD Blacks. And eBay has just given me 70 hits for WD2002FAEX... Look for WDnnnnFAEX for the latest non-AF WD Blacks.

Previous Spec-Sheets for the same HDDs WD Caviar Black (512 or AF) 2011-13.7z

[Dave-H]

Hi again guys.

 

Just wanted to update you on where I am now with this.

I have now obtained a used Supermicro X7DAL-E motherboard, which I was very lucky to get from a guy in Germany for £65 including shipping, and it came with two 2.33 GHz dual core Xeon processors with heat sinks, and 4 GB of memory. As that's the equivalent of around $108, I think I got a bargain there!

Although originally designed for XP/Server 2003 of course the seller said it had been running Windows 7 fine, which was good to hear.

 

I was puzzled to find that the physical layout of my board was quite different in places to the diagram in the printed manual which came with it. On further investigation, I found that the board I have is actually a later revision which was updated to add support for quad core processors (the manual that came with it says dual core only). The information and later manual on the Supermicro site confirm this, so I decided to see if I could find the best processors that the board was capable of supporting. Again I was very lucky to find someone selling used on eBay the quad core 3.16 GHz Xeons that are the maximum I can use. They cost me £40 (around $67) each. Another bargain because I found some companies still selling them new for over $1000 each! 

I was hoping to have them by now, but I should now get them on Monday.

 

What I'm now intending to do is to fit the quad core processors to the board, with the 4 GB of RAM that came with it, and just swap the "new" motherboard with my present one. I'm hoping (praying!) that Windows XP will just work, although it will have to sort out the drivers of course (I've got the latest ones from Supermicro burnt onto a bootable CD.)

I have also had to buy a new graphics card of course, as my old board was AGP, and I've got a cheap ASUS 1 GB AMD Radeon based card.

 

When (if) Windows XP is up and running again, then I'll really pray hard and try to boot into Windows 98.

I suspect it may well not start up at all, and at very least it will have severe problems with the graphics. I remember how hard it was to get it to work with a 512 MB graphics card, I would imagine it will choke badly with a 1 GB one!

 

I'll keep you all posted!

Cheers, Dave.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Dave-H

[dencorso]

CAUTION is advised! Lots of it! It's almost a sure bet XP won't "just work"!
Make a full image of your XP boot drive (preferably a dumb byte-by-byte image of the whole drive). Verify that it's good and save it. Make another image, just like the first one. Restore it to a same-size same-geometry (preferably same-brand and same-model) HDD, swap it with yours in your current board an see that it works OK. When you've mastered producing working clones of your current XP (without destroying the original), then you'll be in grade to experiment safely with your new board. Transplanting XP from one board to another is tricky when the're reasonably similar (as may be your case, althought it's sometimes difficult to define "reasonably similar"), and is utterly impossible when they are too different (but only trial-and-error can tell whether a board is "reasonably similar" or not).
 
Replace Motherboard on a Windows XP System
 
Move Windows XP Hard Drive or Change Motherboard Without Getting a Blue Screen STOP 7B Error - Raymond.CC
 
KB314082 - You receive a Stop 0x0000007B error after you move the Windows XP system disk to another computer

How to change your motherboard and avoid reinstalling Windows XP (Intel to AMD)
(I think most of this latter article does not apply to your case, however...)

[Dave-H]

Thanks Den, wise words as always!

Thank you so much for those links too.

One thing I hadn't mentioned about my existing system is that the system drives are not IDE connected, they are SCSI drives that work through an Adaptec PCI-X SCSI card.

Whether this will make things easier or harder remains to be seen, but the problems mentioned with wrong IDE drivers preventing access to the boot drive hopefully won't occur as long as the SCSI board is recognised OK by the BIOS. It's using the Microsoft provided Adaptec driver in XP which should still be fine.

 

Someone has reported on one of the links that they did get the system to boot OK without having to repair the installation, which was good to hear. At least I'm using a motherboard of the same brand with the same type of processors, so that's a plus point too.

 

I'm prepared to have to re-activate XP if it's unhappy about apparently being on a different computer. I have the disk it was installed from, which is a full install disk, not an OEM or upgrade disk, so I'm not expecting any problems with that.

 

As an aside, I did something similar to this with my netbook in fact, which is dual boot XP and 8.1.

I found a better specified unit with Windows 7 Starter  on it, and I just swapped the hard drives over.

I had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get Windows 8.1 activated again, involving putting in huge strings of numbers from an automated telephone system, but Windows XP just booted and carried on as if nothing had happened!

The two systems were quite similar though with almost the same Intel chipset and processor. The spec of the new unit was slightly better, but the main difference was that the memory could be upgraded to 4 GB, which was physically impossible in the original unit.

[jaclaz]

I haven't checked the links dencorso posted (which will surely be good ones ) but  additionally to them, do READ this one:

http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/moving_xp.html

(the "Repair install" has always worked for me)

 

You could also try a "Sysprep" approach, but on a higly customized install it is likely to create an issue.

 

In any case, and whichever approach you choose make sure to have a way to go back (a dd-like image of the disk where the OS is installed would be my personally preferred solution).

 

The Adaptec SCSI card may actually represent an advantage, as it is a "whole" external block that is moved from the old PC to the new one, and this may even help in not triggering the WPA :

http://aumha.org/win5/a/wpa.htm

 

 

jaclaz

[Dave-H]

Thanks jaclaz!

Looking at that link, of course the dreaded HAL comes up, which is something else that's been worrying me.

I've had systems where it's failed to boot with the "can't find HAL" error, and had to repair them, and this could well happen again of course.

Interesting that the procedure on the link seems to involve starting off the install process, and then aborting it before changing the motherboard, and then letting it continue with the new board.

I don't really want to do that if there's any chance that it won't be necessary.

If I do have to do a repair install, I just hope that the installer is clever enough not to over-write all the SP3 system files (and their updated versions) with SP2 files, as the full installation disk I have is only SP2. I do have an SP3 installation disk but it's a clean install only OEM disk, so I don't want to use that.

 

Incidentally Den recommended making a clone of my system drive onto an identical drive, but as my system drive is a SCSI drive that's not an option as I wouldn't be able to source an identical drive. I will of course back up all my system and data files onto other removable hard drives before I attempt anything!

[jaclaz]

Well, the HAL issue is not a real issue, you can also use the "normal" /HAL option in BOOT.INI to change it:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/833721/en-us

http://www.vernalex.com/guides/sysprep/hal.shtml

 

Of course you will need a PE of some kind or however something capable of editing the BOOT.INI or change in advance the BOOT.INI to include all options.

 

The method linked to before - as said - works fine in my experience, but there are other methods, that one amounts more or less to the "official" MS one in the case of a working "old" or "from" motherboard, but you can also "fake" that the "old" motherboard is dead and use the second method :

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;824125

 

Among the alternatives, there is OfflineSysprep:

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showforum=43

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=22064

 

Though there could be an issue with HAL's coming from updates/hotfixes:

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=23350

 

A clone (or image) has nothing to do with the BUS the mass storage device uses, it is simply a sector-by-sector copy of the device of course you can clone a SCSI disk to a (same size or larger) PATA/IDE or SATA disk, though nowadays it is usually more convenient to make an image instead.

 

jaclaz

Edited August 3, 2014 by jaclaz

[submix8c]

Yeah, you could Slipstream SP3 onto the SP2 and burn. And yes, all post-SP3 Updates will be gone. You -may- have to reinstall a number of things, but not -usually- 3'd party. I "experienced" that with Repair Install of this beast when I changed 1-Core to 2-Core. Belatedly, I found other "methods" (see, e.g. HAL refs above).  JFYI

[dencorso]

Repair Install would send your system back to SP2 (or SP3, if you do what submix8c suggested). Repair Install is not an option IMO.

My idea of using a 2 HDD was for you to get the new board working (even if without a case) before decomissioning the old one... if you intend to actually move the SCSI card and the HDD(s) connected to it to the new board, an image (two, actually, just in case) should suffice. In any case you need a PE or some other means of booting either PC without using your current instalation, in order to be able to redeploy the image so many times as it may prove to be needed.

[Dave-H]

Thanks again, especially for the incredibly useful links!

I don't know what I would do without the members of this forum, you have helped me so much so many times now.

Glad to see from the MS article that aborting the setup before changing the board is just an alternative to running a repair after installing it, as you would have to do if the original board was dead.

As I said, I'm hoping not to have to do that, but there's only one way to find out!

 

I did some research on Windows PE, and that looks complicated to deploy.

I'm really hoping I don't have to get into that.

At the end of the day, if Windows XP refuses to start at all with the new board, and I can't resolve it, I hopefully still have the option of putting the old board back and then scratching my (and your) head(s) again, unless the failed attempt has irrevocably damaged my original installation, which I hope won't be the case!

Edited August 3, 2014 by Dave-H

[jaclaz]

I did some research on Windows PE, and that looks complicated to deploy.

I'm really hoping I don't have to get into that.

Ow, come on .

Everybody builds PE's all day, it is not like brain surgery (it is more like rocket science ).

You need a "basic" PE without all the *unneeded* bells and whistles (that are what usually make projects become more complex and thus prone to errors).

If you try either QuickPE:

http://reboot.pro/files/file/340-quickpe/

or MistyPE:

http://reboot.pro/files/file/357-mistype/

you will find yourself with a working PE 3.x (or 4.xx/5.xx) in no time.

 

At the end of the day, if Windows XP refuses to start at all with the new board, and I can't resolve it, I hopefully still have the option of putting the old board back and then scratching my (and your) head(s) again, unless the failed attempt has irrevocably damaged my original installation, which I hope won't be the case!

That will be EXACTLY the case.

A failed "transplant" will very likely create a "Frankestein Registry" with the OS not capable to boot on either boards or anyway the result will be a half-botched one.

 

Go back and re-read why exactly having an image of the disk is (besides always a nice thing to have) a MUST in this case.

 

jaclaz

 

Edited August 4, 2014 by jaclaz

[cdob]

@Dave-H

Swithcing from a Intel Xeon Dual CPU to a Intel  Xeon Dual CPU, and equal chipset manufacturer. Yes, matching hardware.

Should be both ACPI mulitprocessor HAL: halmacpi.dll http://support.microsoft.com/kb/309283/

Which hal do you use currently? Name the real file name, not hal.dll.

And the same SCSI storage system.

Equal kernel, hal, running mass storage drivers connected to the same HardwareID:

The old XP should boot up at new system. No preperation, no repair install.

Of course a backup is highly recommended nontheless.

[Dave-H]

Thanks again @jaclaz, that's given me a lot more confidence!

I rather lazily only looked at the TechNet documentation for PE, which made it look quite frightening.

MistyPE looks straightforward to use, I will investigate using it.

You're quite right I really must make an image of the system disk, which contains the C: (Windows 98SE) and D: (Windows XP) drives.

Just to complicate things even further, the XP Program Files and Documents & Settings folders are on C:, not on D:!

I may need to go out and buy another IDE drive to do this though, as I don't have a spare one large enough.

 

Thanks @cdob too, it's heartening that you think it will be straightforward!

My present system is recorded as an ACPI Multiprocessor PC in Device Manager, as expected, but it says it's using hal.dll, whereas the MS article seems to be saying that it should be using halmacpi.dll.

That file exists on the system, but only in the Service Pack files folder, so it isn't actually being used by the system.

Any idea why that would be and whether this is going to be another potential source of problems?

Cheers, Dave.