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Win9x locks up

- - - - - old computer

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23 replies to this topic

#1
pulteny

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Hi all,

 

I have an old gateway computer with win89 se, it has a pentium3 cpu and 650 MHerts speed also 300 odd Mb memory.

 

It has taken to booting up ok and runs for about a min then locks up no mouse or keyboard. I also have go-back which is a form of system restore. A message often comes up saying go-back has shut down windows to prevent damage to files.

It runs ok in safe mode,I have tried to remove go-back but get stuck in a loop of shutting down and never get to get rid of go-back.

It has been to the doctors but because it is so old he says it is not worth spending money on and any way could not find the fault.

There are two hard discs and Ithought about installing LINUX or somthing similair on the second drive.

 

I know it is old but has some usefull stuff on the hard drive. As it will only run for a short time almost impossible to save data. I am somewhat attched to the thing anyway.

 

Regars for any usefull advise. pulteny.




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#2
loblo

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Sounds like a hardware issue, memory or motherboard dying I would guess. You can always retrieve the data by plugging your drive on another machine provided it's not a HDD failure issue (works cold but fails as soon as it gets hotter).



#3
submix8c

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1 - Clean every nook and cranny (EVERYWHERE) inside the Computer. Sometimes Dirt/Heat cause a lockup - ESPECIALLY- the CPU Fan/Heatsink and Power Supply.

2 - Restore (if possible) from GoBack (piece of junk...)

3 - Read this -

http://www.bleepingc...-norton-goback/

Note that it refers to "Reinstall the OS" - ignore that -BUT you may need a Win98SE Emergency Boot Disk Floopy (go to BootDisk.com and download/create a Floppy). The reason for that is to "fix" the MBR with "fdisk /mbr" command and to use "fdisk" to set the correct partition as Active (if necessary).

 

Per Point#2 - Goback is a notorious POS piece of Software that does a worse job than WindowsME Restore Points.

 

Addendum - since loblo beat me to it, also use the Emergency Boot Disk to run a "scandisk" against the HDD. GET RID OF GOBACK for sure (IMHO)!


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#4
pulteny

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Hi again,

 

Thank you for replies hope more to come. I would dearly like to  get rid of Go-back but as said  it goes into a  shut down loop and Go-back remains.

 

Been inside and looks very dust free and clean, The doctor checked heat sink but could not find the problem, maybe a second opinion  is required but donot want to spend a lot of money on such an old machine.

 

Moro coments please.

 

Regards pulteny.



#5
pulteny

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Hi again,

 

Thank you for replies hope more to come. I would dearly like to  get rid of Go-back but as said  it goes into a  shut down loop and Go-back remains.

 

Been inside and looks very dust free and clean, The doctor checked heat sink but could not find the problem, maybe a second opinion  is required but donot want to spend a lot of money on such an old machine.

 

Moro coments please.

 

Regards pulteny.



#6
sdfox7

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There are ways to install Windows 98 into a new folder without losing the existing data on your computer. I think it is called "over the top install".

You can use this if your registry is damaged, which I think at this point is likely.

 

Microsoft has an article regarding this: How to Install Windows 98 Into a New Folder

Also: Install Windows 98 over the top of Windows 98


Edited by sdfox7, 08 August 2014 - 11:00 AM.


#7
Drugwash

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There may still be a hardware issue. Look carefully for gonflated/leaky capacitors on the mainboard - if any, that may be the source of lockups. Such bad capacitors could also be inside the power source unit, so if you can get a compatible one for testing purposes, do replace the current PSU and see if the issue persists.

 

Also please manually check the CPU cooler temperature, see if it's too cold or too hot. It's possible that someone might have fitted the cooler the other way around and it's not touching the CPU heatsink, causing CPU overheating.

 

This may also be a malware issue. Can you check the running processes, the startup items? If so, try to build a list and post it here.

 

You may also try to boot from a live CD (if the BIOS allows it) but you'd need some old & lite Linux or something that can run on those hardware specs. Maybe a 4.x version of Knoppix would do. If the lockup does not occur, then you'd know for sure it's a software issue such as malware/bad driver/etc. If it works, you can transfer the data to an USB drive, to the other HDD or to another computer through network, if available.



#8
submix8c

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Apparently the OP won't be able to get/burn/use a Live CD since I gave a link to remove GoBack (also an ISO). I'm *supposing* the OP has no access to another computer to do this? Also, why has "the doctor" not tested to ensure the hardware is all good? IOW, I wouldn't pay "the doctor's bill" since the "patient" is still "sick".


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#9
Drugwash

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Heh, years ago when I visited Wim's BIOS forum I found a guy's signature which said "never assume anything". That thing got burnt in my mind and I usually try to follow that advice. Therefore any and all proper advices should be offered and hopefully one of them will pay off. Besides, there may be other people in similar situation in time, where the solution may be in one of the other advices. It's good to have them all in one place, easy to choose from. ;)

 

Dunno how things go in that part of the world but here we can still call friends or colleagues and ask to borrow a floppy, a CD, a PSU or even a whole computer if necessary. So-called doctors may just try to pump up the bill sometimes. Besides, it's fun trying to fix something by yourself - one gets to learn things, not to mention the satisfaction when they succeed. :)



#10
tomw

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If you want to try a Linux distribution, check out puppylinux from their download site:

http://puppylinux.org/main/Download Latest Release.htm

 Down the page a bit you can find a program to put Linux on a windows partition and install a boot loader to select Linux or window at boot time (grub boot loader)

http://puppylinux.or...ease.htm#winEXE

 

 It can run from USB or CD, and there are a few other versions that support boxes running old Pentiums, such as the Wary version here:

http://puppylinuxnew...py-is-released/

( I run it on a P4 with 192M IIRC)

tom

 

 If you take a look at the capacitors on your board, check for them having bulging tops as that is a pretty good indicator of failure.  Some will blow out the bottom and sort of 'pop up' from their original position, leaving their solder leads still in place.


Edited by tomw, 11 August 2014 - 11:41 AM.

PUFFT on a 7094

#11
pulteny

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Hi again.

 

Thank you for more replys .I am not very computer literate and a silver surfer.I have dug out the Gateway instruction book and read the details for installing windows over windows.No one has commented on the fact that it runs ok in safe mode.Surely if the cpu was over heating ths would happen there also.

 

I failed to mention the doctor added another copy of win98 on ths second hard drive,he must hve tried to boot from this with no succes.

 

glad of your continued intrest in my quest to get the thing up and running.

 

Regards pulteny


Edited by pulteny, 14 August 2014 - 03:29 AM.


#12
Drugwash

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That must've been a pet doctor! :whistle:

 

In safe mode, an OS doesn't load all the drivers/services/startup apps/etc but only the bare minimum required to run diagnose, debug and repair. If your computer runs fine in safe mode then it's definitely a software issue and it lays in one of the additional pieces of software enumerated earlier. The easiest way to find out which one is to disable all of the additionals in safe mode, reboot in normal mode and if it works fine in normal mode, at that point you can start reenabling the disabled items one by one, reboot in normal mode after each enabled item and when it breaks you'll know the latest enabled item is the culprit.

 

Disabling items can be done by running msconfig from Start > Run > type 'msconfig' > press [ENTER]. Do that in safe mode.

Go to the 'Startup' tab, enlarge the window to show all items fully, take a screenshot and attach it here in a comment so we can take a look and tell you what is safe to disable. Basically first thing to disable would be 'Go back' but there may be others, even malware. Since you say you're not familiar with computers, please do not try to disable anything by yourself at this point.

 

You may also switch to the Config.sys and Autoexec.bat tabs and take screenshots of those as well, as they may contain commands to load drivers or applications.

 

 

To take a screenshot, press Left Alt and PrtScrn (Print Screen) simultaneously while the System Configuration Utility (msconfig) window is focused, then open MS Paint, press Ctrl and V to paste the image and then save it to a handy location (Desktop, My Documents or wherever you can find it quicky afterwards).

 

If you have another image-manipulation application that works in safe mode and can convert images to JPG or PNG then save the screenshots as BMP and then convert them to either JPG or PNG - whichever gets the smallest file size (since there's a limit on total attachment size here on the boards). Otherwise save the screenshots directly from MS Paint as JPG.

 

I'd recommend FastStone Image Viewer (freeware) for image manipulation, but there are others too.


Edited by Drugwash, 14 August 2014 - 06:51 AM.


#13
pulteny

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Hi drugwash

Surely everyone has worked out that I am using my other less older computer to write here.

Tried to open screenshot in paint but no luck. I seem to rember a screenshot would open with Word or note pad must ask my better half.Anyway how was I to send to here. Ithought about printing the shot out and scanning ,then attaching file on here.My old computer has no internet access to internet in safe mode. This would be read only and not a active file.

 

submix8c.

Your info on removing go-back is for a version by Norton my one is by wildfile inc.on the Gateway banner.

 

The doctor is getting a bit of stick here,he is a young guy and is not up on Win98se give him a break ,said there would be no charge but I insisted to pay what we had set on.

 

The plot thickens pulteny.

 

Up date managed to open in paint still need to know best way to post here?


Edited by pulteny, 16 August 2014 - 05:05 AM.


#14
submix8c

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GoBack - same software, different owner -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoBack

Looks like Gateway's agreement began in 1999. So, may I inform you that I removed the GoBack from someone's Windows98SE Gateway 2000 PC with that software? (Please note aquisition dates when passed from hand-to-hand)

 

Gateway's Sales Pitch -

Spoiler

Refers to the Adaptec "version" (98, 98SE, ME) - http://panam.gateway...666801110.shtml

Also refers to WindowsME - http://panam.gateway...667607110.shtml

 

So let me guess - you didn't try it, did you? Let me repeat myself - same software, different owner now, has been and always will be a pile of junk software fraught with problems. It constantly monitors all HDD activity and constantly backs up -any and all- changes, thus thrashing the crap out of the HDD's.

http://www.wikihow.c...-the-Hard-Drive

http://www.bleepingc...-norton-goback/

 

This - http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/GoBack

 

Norton GoBack (previously known as Wildfile GoBack, Adaptec GoBack, Roxio GoBack) is a Microsoft Windows based disk utility.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. I'll not say it again (since you want to argue/ignore) - Try it or don't try it. Your choice...


Edited by submix8c, 16 August 2014 - 09:57 AM.

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#15
Drugwash

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Hi drugwash

Surely everyone has worked out that I am using my other less older computer to write here.

Tried to open screenshot in paint but no luck. I seem to rember a screenshot would open with Word or note pad must ask my better half.Anyway how was I to send to here. Ithought about printing the shot out and scanning ,then attaching file on here.My old computer has no internet access to internet in safe mode. This would be read only and not a active file.

 

[...]

 

Up date managed to open in paint still need to know best way to post here?

Images can be transferred through USB stick, floppy disk, can be burnt on (re)writable CD/DVDs or the respective HDD can be moved and connected to the working computer where the images can be copied and the possibly faulty HDD can be checked for hardware/software problems. It all depends on the existing hardware/media and of course the corresponding level of knowledge.

 

Images can be attached to comments by using the [More reply options] button at the bottom-right of the page; alternatively they can be posted to online image hosts and then linked to them here.

 

If you really can't get the screenshots posted, you may bite the bullet and disable anything in msconfig related to the assumingly faulty software namely GoBack. It may be enough at least to let you restart in normal mode and perform additional tasks such as uninstalling the software, checking for faults using Scandisk etc.

 

I'd really like a confirmation from submix8c whether disabling startup items related to GoBack would be safe and could help in fixing the issue. Thank you.

 

Oh and don't mind the jokes - I'm sure the doctor was just trying to help the best he could with the tools at hand. ;)



#16
pulteny

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Hi all,

submix8c

Keep your shirt on, your speaking to a auld mannie.I have looked at all your links and interesting reading they are.My sick computer will only run in safe mode and nothing is working that I could write to. Only the floppy disc works and this computer does not have a floppy reader.

The option to put the gateway hard disc in this one might be  more than I am up to,the differance between ide and sata is bothering me ,how do you tell them appart.

 

drugwash,

I removed go-back polling from start up made no differance and another version was installed on next boot up. How about if I take digital photographs from mscofig and post here.

 

Regards pulteny.



#17
Drugwash

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Yes, you could do that, provided the writing is clearly distinguishable. We need to know which items pertain to that dreaded software so we can disable them all at once.

 

What I'm afraid of is that there could be more of them options also in System.ini and/or Win.ini which would require switching to corresponding tabs in msconfig, expanding some sections, getting screenshots of them too... Anyway, you do what you can and maybe someone who has experience with that software could chime in with their knowledge in the mean time. Otherwise it'll be trial and error.

 

Teleportation surely would've come in handy... :D



#18
submix8c

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No, absolutely not.


I'd really like a confirmation from submix8c whether disabling startup items related to GoBack would be safe and could help in fixing the issue. Thank you.

I guess you missed the part where the Master Boot Record is altered?

BIOS->MBR->PBR->OS

So, you can't download and burn the ISO with this computer?


Surely everyone has worked out that I am using my other less older computer to write here.


My sick computer will only run in safe mode and nothing is working that I could write to. Only the floppy disc works and this computer does not have a floppy reader.

This has nothing to do with Floppy. Read this -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_image

BIOS->CD-ROM-BOOT->GobackBeGone

Need I get screenshots of a Gateway (actually *normally* Intel) BIOS Setup Screen to show you  how? Try pressing F2 *repeatedly* when you turn it on. There will (should be) be a "Boot" selection there - change it *after* you Burn The ISO Image using your other (unnamed) Computer and boot to it.

1 - Download ISO to "other less older" Computer

2 - Burn ISO to CD-R (NOT DVD!)

3 - Turn on "sick" Computer and press F2 (AFAICR), change Boot Order

4 - Stick Burned CD-R in CD-Reader

5 - Press whatever key in BIOS that says "Save Changes" (usually F10)

6- "Sick" Computer will boot to CD-R - do whatever it says to do.

7 - Report back.


I have an old gateway computer with win89 se, it has a pentium3 cpu and 650 MHerts speed also 300 odd Mb memory.

(Another unnamed computer). Please state the Make/Model of said "sick" (some kind of Gateway 2000?) and "less older".

 

Sir, I'm 63 years old. Please don't use your age as an excuse for not thinking clearly. Thank you.

 

Now, if you *refuse* to do that... well, the ball remains in your court.

 

Here (again) is the link to the FTP Folder containing the ISO Image -

ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english_us_canada/linked_files/GoBack/

There's also a REG file that completely obliterates all traces of GoBack from the Registry, including the Service that has been haunting you.

 

Here is the CONFIG.SYS selections in the CD ISO Image

[menu]
menuitem=GBPROGU, To unhook GoBack (for typical machines)
menuitem=GBPROGR, To repair the Master Boot Record (for typical machines)
menuitem=PCDOS, To Load IDE (typical) CD-ROM Drivers and exit to the command prompt
menuitem=SCSI, To Load SCSI CD-ROM Drivers and exit to the command prompt

Here is the AUTOEXEC.BAT actions for above

:GBPROGU
echo *****************************************************************
echo This Utility will allow you to remove Norton GoBack from your
echo system's partition table. If you do not want to do this, please
echo remove the CD-ROM from the drive now and restart your computer.
echo.
pause

echo.
echo Unhooking GoBack from MBR...
echo.
%CDROM%:\GB_PROG.exe /u
echo.
echo Norton GoBack has been removed from the partition table.
echo Please restart your computer.
goto END

Need I say more? ;)

 

Erm... guess I do, since Drugwash responded. Here is a snippet of the code inside the REG file (that can be run in Safe Mode)

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunServices]
"GoBack Polling Service"=-
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Symantec\InstalledApps]
"Roxio GoBack"=-

I'll let him explain that one since he's already mentioned it. :yes:

(Wildfile->Adaptec->Roxio->Norton/Symantec - same GoBack software)

 

I'm out of this...

 

Addendum - I'll happily install this POS software on a test machine to prove this to you. Did I not state that I had done this to someone's PC some years ago? I even described the "HDD thrashing"...

 

And and Edit. This is found inside the Program (also at the FTP site) that gets executed from the Bootable CD (ISO).

C:\PROGRA~1\WILDFI~1\GOBACK\GB_PROG.EXE
This clearly indicates that the "maker" of said software includes (you guessed it) - WILDFIRE! (found via Hex Editor)

Edited by submix8c, Yesterday, 09:14 AM.

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

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#19
Drugwash

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Oops, I had indeed missed the MBR part. :blushing:  Well, if that's the case then burning that rescue CD and booting from it to completely remove GoBack would indeed be the best solution. Hopefully the sick machine can boot from optical drive.



#20
LostInSpace2012

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I'll add my two cents... checking for malware might be a good idea as well.

I don't know your situation.... but perhaps you can get to a library and download the following programs. (Take a blank CD-R or USB flash drive with you to library). If you aren't able to do this, then perhaps you could suggest them to your Doctor friend and he can use them.

I will provide links to a few programs, and if you need help running or loading them, I'm sure we can help. It's just another avenue to persue... since you never mentioned what kind of security/anti-virus software you have. Without much detailed information about your PC we don't have much to go on at the moment, therefore it's like stabbing in the dark. But, I'm sure it's fixable one way or the other.

BugHunter Malware Scanner for DOS
http://bughunter.it-mate.co.uk/

F-Prot Anti-Virus for DOS
ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/avir/fp-316f.zip
ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/avir/fp-def.zip

^ Make a folder called "Fprot" and extract the contents of both zip files into that folder. It will ask you to overwrite the older definitions, simply click yes. Once both zip files are extracted to the folder, go to Start, then Run, then type in "command." A black screen should appear. Then type in "F-prot /old." The program will start, tell it to search all local disks. To get back to windows type "Exit."

F-prot can sometimes repair a "broken" or infected Master Boot record.

MemScan
http://roseswe.ez-web.de/

*Edit*

Lastly, make sure your hard drive isn't out of space. Those back up programs might use up a lot of drive space if left unchecked. Silly suggestion about drive space, but yeah.

Edited by LostInSpace2012, Yesterday, 10:01 AM.


#21
LostInSpace2012

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From the bottom of Submix8c's Link.... this looks promising...

I just overcame goback error 121 and 141. I had to pay symantec $10 and fight with the support guy. It turns out there is another way to disable goback. Apparently it varies by make of computer. I have an IBM desktop computer. Pressing "control" and "alt" and "g" when the computer starts will force a new option. At the prompt "f" will force removal of goback. It worked. Why isn't this on the goback website? What about the other secret codes for other makes?

and

Re: Adaptec GoBack software on Win 98

Thanks for the reply Mark.
I'm sorry I was wrong about Goback starting before POST. But to actually change your bootup options you need to get into the GoBack bootup screen and this is where it is freezing up on me. I have finally found the answer on Adaptec's site. I need to press ctrl+alt+G between POST and the GoBack screen to disable the GoBack utility. Thanks again for taking the time.
Don

http://windowssecret...tware-on-Win-98

Edited by LostInSpace2012, Yesterday, 11:00 AM.


#22
submix8c

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FYI -

1 - Ctrl+Alt+G is (more than likely) in the MBR Code much like (e.g.) Dell's "System Restore" key sequence. ;)

2 - The HDD may/may-not be zonked (filled up) by... GoBack. ;)

3 - As soon as you "attach another Physical HDD" and/or create an additional Partition, GoBack "takes over". It "kind of" works like "System Restore" in WinME/XP-and-up but *vastly* differently. It runs CONSTANTLY, hence the statement Pee-O-S**t (KILLS the HDD's). NOT good for Gamers at all or even heavy Web Browsing, now is it? :no:

4 - Also, you might note the "snippet" from CONFIG.SYS (booting to DOS Command Prompt). "FDISK /MBR" will completely restore the MBR. ;) Again, I'll gladly install this junk on a Test PC and give further instructions as necessary.

5 - The REG file is "useless" on the "sick machine" since the "not so older machine" has no floppy. However, please note that the Burned CD provides access to the CD files. It would be possible to "recreate" the CD (NOT GOING TO DESCRIBE THAT to a n00b here) and include said REG file that *could* be double-clicked in Safe Mode. Indeed, that SINGLE LINE indicating the "RunServices" entry could be MANUALLY removed using Regedit in Safe Mode (F8) to turn-it-off, providing it can be Disabled AT LEAST ONCE and remove it WHILE DISABLED.

 

Please note that the WWW is rife with GoBack problems, including but not limited to -LOCKS UP-. :crazy:

 

How about we wait and see the result from the CD/ISO attempt? :yes:

 

Side note - It appears to boot to PC-DOS but utilizes Windows 98 (First Edition) files (e.g. SYS, FDISK, FORMAT, etc) and a smattering of Win98SE as well. (Yes, I dumped it to look.)

 

Addendum - Antivirus is going to be useless until GoBack is obliterated, amirite?


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#23
LostInSpace2012

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agree with you there submix8c.... I'm wondering if OP has tried the "Control-Alt-G", "F" method yet?

#24
submix8c

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(sigh...) Tested the NSW2002 Goback v3.0.4.53 in VirtualPC on clean install Win98SE. Asked for Reboot, so OK - hangs at blinking cursor/black screen. Boot to LiveXP (WinBuilder) and MBR is overlayed with the GoBack one, Partition Type changed to "44", and a spanky new file on the C-drive (my LiveXP ignores Partition Types) named "gobackio.bin" (google that). Next, I try using the Removal ISO, it hangs during execution (go figure...).

Here's a link that indicates *maybe* it's best to use two partitions. :unsure:

http://www.pcreview....m-t2828981.html

Here's the oldest link to the Original WildFile website -

http://web.archive.o...ww.goback.com/?

I *suppose* I could try the LiveXP, delete the BIN file, rename the GoBack folder (for funsies), change the Partition Type back to FAT32 "0C", boot the GoBack ISO, run "FDISK /MBR" and see what happens.

 

Side note - be aware that you would need a Floppy Boot specifically with FDISK and PTEDIT (downloadable from Symantec FTP), reboot to it, then do the delete/rename if doing this outside of a LiveOS CD. The PTEDIT program is basically a "must have" as the FDISK should be on the HDD already.

1 - Basic Bootable Win9x Floppy with FDISK - get PTEDIT onto it

2 - Boot to it and use PTEDIT to change Partition Type, then run "FDISK /MBR"

3 - Reboot to it and rename/delete "gobackio.bin" and "C:\Program Files\Roxio" (maybe the WiledFile foldername I indicated above?)

4 - Remove Floppy, reboot, and pray to whatever gods you pray to.

PTEDIT found here inside "PTEDIT.ZIP"

ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english_us_canada/tools/pq/utilities/

One might have HOPED the OP had made an Emergency Boot Disk (floppy) at one time or another, noting that the "sick" PC is the only one with a Floppy Drive.

 

(le-sigh....)


Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

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