Jump to content

Welcome to MSFN Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account



Photo

ATI Graphics Crashing

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

I rebuilt my machine with a different motherboard last year, and have managed to get Windows 98SE running on it pretty well.

I've ended up using two graphics cards, with an old ATI X850 card for Windows 98 compatibility, and a current nVidia card as well mainly for use on Windows 8.1. The latter is in an x16 PCIe slot, the former in an x4 PCIe slot.

 

The problem is that the ATI graphics driver on Windows 98 seems to crash or something when I do any intensive things like moving large numbers of files with Windows Explorer.

The monitor will suddenly black out with an "out of range" indication, and the only way I've found out of that other than forcibly rebooting is to use the "sleep" button on the keyboard. This has the effect of resetting the driver, but it comes back as shown in the picture, with a strange looking mouse cursor and a square of shash up in the top left hand corner.

I can use it quite happily like that, and it never crashes again until after the next reboot.

 

Attached File  GraphicsDriverCrash.jpg   50.48KB   1 downloads

 

The only way I've found to stop it crashing at all is to put the hardware acceleration slider down two notches (one is not enough) but this results in not being able to use large fonts and/or having poor colour depth.

 

The strange thing is that the old motherboard had an AGP slot, and I was using there the AGP version of the X850 card, with exactly the same driver (Catalyst 6.2, the last version that works on Windows 98) and it was perfectly stable.

The card I have now is simply the PCIe version of the same card, with the same driver, and it crashes!

 

Anyone any idea how to troubleshoot this, as it's very annoying!

Cheers, Dave.

:)
 


Edited by Dave-H, 16 February 2015 - 06:33 PM.

Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.



How to remove advertisement from MSFN

#2
loblo

loblo

    Oldbie

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 798 posts
  • Joined 12-January 10
  • OS:ME
  • Country: Country Flag

Does your x850 card work OK under the other OSes? Perhaps the card is faulty.

 

Did your AGP card and drivers also used a HD resolution monitor?  Perhaps this card or those drivers don't cope well with that resolution.



#3
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Thanks Oldbie!

Sorry, I should have mentioned of course, but forgot, that I use the same card (but with a later driver) on Windows XP, and it always works perfectly.

I can use it on Windows 8.1 as well, although I don't normally, and it's no problem there either (different (64 bit) driver again of course!)

I've therefore no reason to think that there's anything physically wrong with the card.

The monitor resolution (1920x1080 60Hz) is the same now as it was with the old motherboard, so that hasn't changed either.

:)


Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.


#4
submix8c

submix8c

    Inconceivable!

  • Patrons
  • 4,528 posts
  • Joined 14-September 05
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Here's a silly question - How about a Monitor INF? I assume you've installed one for that monitor?

One for an NEC AccuSync 90 specifically states -

HKR,MODES
HKR,,MaxResolution
HKR,,DPMS
HKR,,ICMProfile

 

Is that the same monitor you had hooked up to the AGP card?


Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

Posted Image


#5
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Actually no monitor INF was ever supplied with my monitor, which is an ASUS VE278Q.

It's never used one before so I'd be surprised if it's the cause of the problem now, and it is the same one I was using before I changed the motherboard.

I had been thinking it was maybe some sort of memory issue, although it's only a 256 MB card, and I thought that it was only 512 MB and higher cards that Windows 98 really struggled with.

I did get a 512 MB AGP nVidia card working very happily with Windows 98 with my old motherboard.

:)


Edited by Dave-H, 18 February 2015 - 12:02 PM.

Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.


#6
submix8c

submix8c

    Inconceivable!

  • Patrons
  • 4,528 posts
  • Joined 14-September 05
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

This one -

http://www.asus.com/...jectors/VE278Q/

Using the VGA connector, right?

 

Can we assume the Monitor is showing up as "Default" or "Plug And Pray"? And the Video Driver is appropriate?


Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

Posted Image


#7
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Actually it's showing up in Device Manager as ASUS VE278!

Where Windows is getting this from I don't know, as there are no INF files with that string in them anywhere.

I guess it must be getting it directly from the monitor's embedded hardware information.

In Windows XP it just appears as a generic Plug and Play monitor!

Yes, using the VGA connector.

:)


Edited by Dave-H, 19 February 2015 - 07:09 PM.

Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.


#8
Drugwash

Drugwash

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Joined 21-June 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

It's possible that the resources occupied by the other video card could force the board to put the ATI in a nonstandard position that 9x cannot fully cope with. Or maybe you were just missing the monitor driver that I linked to in a PM. ;)

Install that driver, reboot and check again - you might get lucky.

Otherwise, if there's other free PCIe x4 slot, try to move the ATI card there, maybe it will get other resources assigned.



#9
submix8c

submix8c

    Inconceivable!

  • Patrons
  • 4,528 posts
  • Joined 14-September 05
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

:crazy:

http://vip.asus.com/...SLanguage=en-us

 

 

I am really sorry to hear that you are experiencing this issue. 
Our LCD monitors is Plug & Play in Win2K / Win XP / Vista 32bit / Vista 64bit/Windows 7/Windows 7 64bit. So it doesn’t need LCD monitor driver.

Seems that you *might* be able to get the INF information from the Registry (the PnP one) and create a Win9x INF (that it seemingly recognizes) from the information. I have my NEC INF installed and it has everything needed to allow for proper resolutions/refresh rates. I could provide you with that INF and the relate REG entries (but they're already in the INF).

 

That is, unless the one Drugwash provided works. :unsure:

 

edit - GHAK! This is stupid!

http://www.nodevice....726/456322.html

Asus VE278 - 19mb Zip, inside is another Zip (9mb) for... Windows 8! The dang thing is *exactly* like any other Driver! (e.g. my NEC)! Provided it works, all you have to do is change the ID inside and "mod" it for 9x.

Note: the EDID is "ACI27F6"

A couple of references -

http://www.ttlg.com/...l=1#post2172860

http://hardforum.com...83&postcount=17

Oddball (does your Win9x ATI CCC do this?) -

http://www.sevenforu...81-post302.html

 

 

ATI CCC will let me override EDID on a VGA connection

Edited by submix8c, 20 February 2015 - 03:12 PM.

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

Posted Image


#10
Drugwash

Drugwash

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Joined 21-June 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Those poor guys in India or somewhere else, wherever ASUS outsourced their Help & Support, have no idea what they're talking about.

There is a monitor driver and it's right on their own web page! But being that they threw everything in there just to get rid of the task...

 

So, to get to the official driver:

- open the monitor page here http://www.asus.com/Monitors/VE278Q/

- click Support (top right)

- click Driver & Tools in the top bar

- in the dropdown list where it says OS select Windows 8 32bit

- select Others from the three categories below

There you'll find two downloads. First one is ASUS_VE278_Windows_7_WHQL.

Click Global below and you got the driver. It has %Chicago% signature, it should work in all 32bit Windows.



#11
submix8c

submix8c

    Inconceivable!

  • Patrons
  • 4,528 posts
  • Joined 14-September 05
  • OS:none specified
  • Country: Country Flag

Edit - and here's some nifty stuff. Not really sure if this is considered warez. If so, some Mod may remove the link if necessary.

http://www.voetsjoeba.com/misc/edid/

It pertains to creating your own INF files, etc.

 

Good find, Drugwash! Surely that should work!

 

EDIT! Erm you may still need to mod it. "Excludefromselect.nt" and a "SERVICE"??? Is that supposed to be there for 9x? Attached is my NEC one. Use it as a reference.

Attached Files


Edited by submix8c, 20 February 2015 - 03:24 PM.

Someday the tyrants will be unthroned... Jason "Jay" Chasteen; RIP, bro!

Posted Image


#12
Drugwash

Drugwash

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Joined 21-June 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Yep, I've already settled that with Dave in PM. Works in XP after modding, waiting for a 98SE test tomorrow. Fingers crossed! ;)



#13
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Sorry for the long delay in replying again.

I did manage to get  the Asus ICM driver to work in Windows 98 after a bit of a struggle, but it didn't affect the problem I'm afraid.

:no:

I've been experimenting with other earlier driver versions, but all the ones I've been able to find either have the same problem, or don't contain any hardware IDs for the card. I've tried manually adding the necessary information to the INF files, but without success.

Catalyst 4.3, and possibly 4.4, are supposedly the last "proper" Windows 98 ATI drivers, but the card post-dates them.

Catalyst 5.2 is a driver for ME which does support the card, but also crashes.

 

I'm now working on the principle that it isn't actually a problem with the driver itself.

It does install fine and works fine until you try something taxing, at which point it decides to switch spontaneously to some other output standard, which unfortunately my monitor can't display!

It passes all the DirectX tests with flying colours, so it can't be that unstable.

:)


Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.


#14
Drugwash

Drugwash

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Joined 21-June 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

In the mean time grab 'Quick switcher' from my repository and set it up on first usage.

You get three hotkeys per display where you can set your preferred resolutions. Primary display should work with Ctrl+Shift+F1/F2/F3.

When the driver crashes (or changes resolution), use one of the hotkeys to change resolution back to an accepted one.

Please let me know if this works as intended.



#15
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Yes it does indeed, thanks Drugwash!

Actually after I used it I realised that in fact the ATI Control Panel has a hot key function which will do exactly that same thing, so I'm actually now using that!

:blushing:

Now when the display suddenly vanishes to I don't know what, I can just hit Ctrl+F12 and bring it back again, albeit with the square of digital rubbish in the top left hand corner, and a big blurry mouse cursor in a grey square box, as per my original screenshot!

I've no found any way of returning it completely to normal apart from a reboot, but at least I can finish what I was doing easily now before rebooting.

:yes:

I'm still no nearer to finding out why it's doing what it's doing though.

It would be a help to find exactly what triggers the problem!

I have a program called Registry Workshop, which has a pop out menu that allows you to select favourite registry locations.

Getting that to pop out and double clicking on any of the entries crashes the display pretty reliably!

The other crashes seem to happen quite randomly after using Explorer for a while to move files around and that sort of thing.

I've never managed to provoke a crash by using any other program (so far!)

:)


Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.


#16
Drugwash

Drugwash

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Joined 21-June 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Does my tool return the display to the same garbled screen as per your screenshot or does it show a clean desktop? Just trying to set things as clear as possible.

 

I have my share of display driver crashes with certain applications (most notably Firefox 9 and usually when scrolling down/up a page fast), but I'm using an nVidia card with a very old manufacturer driver that I can't update without losing AGP Texture completely.

 

In my case all bitmaps used by Revolutions Pack for skinning become garbled, everything is slow and the system eventually freezes so I need to reboot as soon as possible. Haven't found a reason, let alone a cure, in years so I'm afraid there's little to nothing I can help here with, except for that tool and maybe some new ideas if they come my way.

 

I don't have Registry Workshop anywhere on my system and neither is it in my CD/DVD software collection, unless it bears a cryptic name. Seeing it's a commercial product, I'm gonna pass on installing it.

I also never use Explorer. Ever. :)


Edited by Drugwash, Yesterday, 05:32 PM.


#17
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

No, sadly your tool restores exactly the same garbled desktop.

:no:

I'd certainly be using it if it didn't!

 

I think once the "damage" has been done, the desktop cannot return to normal except by a reboot.

When it's come back in the garbled state, whether it's restored by your tool, the ATI Control Panel, or by putting the machine to sleep and waking it again, it never looks right again, even though it is apparently back at its normal settings.

The differences are the mouse cursor display (which may be a clue!) and the box of rubbish at the top left, which stays there, although proportionately larger, even if you go to DOS. Only a restart will clear it.

That looks like some sort of corruption in the RAM of the graphics card.

:(


Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.


#18
Drugwash

Drugwash

    MSFN Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Joined 21-June 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Ok, thank you for elaborating. It seems in both our cases the driver becomes nonfunctional once it crashes and cannot be loaded again. The system probably uses the standard VGA driver instead, until the next reboot.

This one is tough. :(

 

Here's one other thing for you to try, just for the sake of it. Won't fix the crashes or anything, just wanna see if the video memory gets cleaned or not. if it works as I hope, the garble should dissapear. Driver won't be reloaded though, so don't get high hopes.

 

First of all, run Quick Switcher so you can have the hotkeys at hand; you might need to switch a couple resolutions/color depths if the desktop comes back misaligned.

Then grab WLL_bundle.7z from my repository, unpack it, go to WLLall > SvgaCom, rename startupOK.bmp to startup.bmp and launch SVGACOM.COM.

If everything's right you'll see a fullscreen animated logo (was part of the WLL project started by Tihiy years ago).

Hit ESC to end the animation and return to desktop. If the desktop is now clean it means there was rubbish in the video memory, otherwise there may be other issues (possibly bad memory pointers). Use Quick Switcher a couple times if desktop appears shifted to one side.

 

Of course I could be awfully wrong about this all since it's not my expertise. But at least you'll have some fun. :)



#19
Dave-H

Dave-H

    MSFN Expert

  • MSFN Sponsor
  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined 04-January 06
  • OS:98SE
  • Country: Country Flag

Running SVGACOM doesn't clear the display corruption I'm afraid.

 

Attached File  SVGACOM.JPG   75.23KB   0 downloads

 

As you can see, the square of rubbish is still there in the top left corner.

 

I have now decided that I need to eliminate the card itself being the source of the problem.

Although it does work fine in Windows XP and Windows 8.1, I did read somewhere that they run hotter under Windows 98, and if the hardware is more stressed that could be the issue.

 

I found another used card on eBay for a very cheap price, so I have ordered that.

It's an X800 card rather than an X850, but I'm hoping it's close enough to just directly substitute it without any driver complications, as the driver is for both.

That will hopefully eliminate whether it is actually a hardware issue.

:)


Triple boot Windows 98SE SP2.1a, Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit, and Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit.
Dual 3.16GHz X5460 Quad Core Xeons with 8GB RAM. Dual graphics cards ATI Radeon X850 and Nvidia Geforce 210. 1920x1080 32 Bit Colour with Large Fonts.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users