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98SE

RLoew's non-XMS Ramdisk and related Software

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98SE    14
13 hours ago, dencorso said:

While the absolute maximum RAM accessed by RLoew was 4094 MiB, that was a "for test" or "for Record" setting, which is not stable for everyday use.
The maximum RAM accessible in a stable setup should be something around 3.25 to 3.50 GiB of RAM, depending on Video Card and on the specific board.
Once one determines the maximum RAM visible to Windows on their specific board, then, by subtracting that value from 4 GiB one can know the maximum size a system managed Swapfile will ever use. All this is valid when using the RLoew's RAM Limitation Patch (and the 64-bit non-XMS Ramdisk to use the rest of the RAM and to put the Swapfile in).

This is for an 8GB installed memory setup.  The highest possible stable memory patched setup will be tested to compare to a traditional 98SE system memory unpatched for performance evaluation comparison.

The max memory limit you described would be similar to XP if it was in the 3.2GB->3.5GB range.

However he stated the Swapfile had a 2GB max limit so I used an 8GB installed memory as an example of a common setup to optimize.

The first 3GB he stated is only for 98SE, 1GB reserved for MMIO although I wanted to know specifically how the 64MB, 128MB, and 256MB PCIe graphics card would affect MMIO space usage and if the remaining unused memory from that 3GB-4GB MMIO area would be freed up to the 98 Programs on top of the 3GB or is it totally untouchable and reserved only for the video cards.

The above 4GB->8GB memory region would be used by the 64-bit XMS Ramdrive to create a 4GB Ramdrive.

2GB Max for a Swapfile as stated unless there is no Swapfile Limit and can be as large as the remainder of the memory installed above 4GB when using a 64-bit XMS Ramdrive.

Now if there is no 2GB Max for a Swapfile then in a 64GB system, 64Gb-4GB leaves a 60GB 64-bit Ramdrive max which can be assigned as a large Swapfile which would add 60GB of Virtual Memory on top of the 3GB 98SE Total Memory creating a combined max of 63GB memory.

However if the 2GB Swapfile is the true max no matter how much RAM is installed above 6GB then I don't see any real advantage having more than 6GB installed for 98SE standard 16/32bit programs which are limited to the first 3GB.

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dencorso    543
29 minutes ago, 98SE said:

The max memory limit you described would be similar to XP if it was in the 3.2GB->3.5GB range.

Yes! Precisely! :yes:
Now, let's suppose a given machine yields 3.5GiB, OK? Then the maximum swapfile 98SE will ever use is 4 GiB - 3.5 GiB = 0.5 GiB, no matter how hard one yells at it. That's what RLoew means by Commit limit = 4 GiB: that is Accessible RAM + SwapFile = 4 GiB.

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98SE    14
4 hours ago, dencorso said:

Yes! Precisely! :yes:
Now, let's suppose a given machine yields 3.5GiB, OK? Then the maximum swapfile 98SE will ever use is 4 GiB - 3.5 GiB = 0.5 GiB, no matter how hard one yells at it. That's what RLoew means by Commit limit = 4 GiB: that is Accessible RAM + SwapFile = 4 GiB.

With 8GB installed,

By your statement then the Swap File Max is not really 2GB since 98SE will use up to 3GB normally up to 3.5GB Max leaving only 0.5GB left to squeeze out a 512MB SwapFile which will be stored on the Ramdrive.  How would you go about forcing 98SE to use less than 3.5GB of its memory to a lower threshold or is that even possible if using the Ram Limitation Patch?  Let's say you want to reduce/force 98SE Programs memory to a 1GB limit so you can have a 3GB SwapFile or 2GB actual SwapFile if 1GB is fully reserved for MMIO.

And from what you stated earlier it seems even less likely to need more than 4GB installed for maximizing the Ram Limitation Patch.  Any excess memory above 4GB can only be used as a 64-bit XMS Ramdisk but cannot be added as Virtual memory to increase the total memory 98SE can use for 16/32-bit programs.  In XP the behavior is different as you can create a large swapfile greater than 2GB using memory above 3.2GB.  Maybe there is a way to hack this swapfile size limit in 98SE to match XP's behavior.

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jaclaz    944

@98SE

With all due respect :), but really, you DO NOT *need* a swapfile (at all) and surely you DO NOT *want* such a large swapfile (having ramdisk for your loading of an iso "as is" or similar may have some merits, but NOT a swapfile, which is nothing but an extension to available memory that you won't need[1]), I am all for "thought experiments" but maybe here you are taking it to the realm of pure speculation, just for the sake of it. :dubbio:

Why don't you put together a suitable machine and try?

Very likely, even if each and every theory expressed here is valid, you will find in real testing a number of roadblocks (be it BIOS, hardware, software, whatever) that may (please read as "will") likely prevent you from actually achieving what in theory is possible with a sufficient stability and you'll have to settle for "lower standards".

jaclaz

[1] In the real world at the time when Windows 98 was fully supported (and programs were actually written for it), a "typical" machine would have had 64 Mb, sometimes 128 Mb, exceptionally 256 Mb of RAM and respectively 128 Mb, 256Mb and 512 Mb swapfile at the very most.

In other words, no machine at the time ever had more than 256+512=768 Mb of "virtual" RAM (i.e. physical RAM+swapfile) available.

Still they worked fine.

Now, with some tricks, you can have 1 Gb or more of "real" RAM available, that will be more than enough to run *each and every* program written for 98 (+1), unless (and until) some programmer will write an actually useful/working piece of modern  bloatware that will need more RAM.


 

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MrMateczko    21

I'm agreeing with jaclaz.

I run NFS: Most Wanted 05 and NFS: Carbon, under 98SE with 1GB RAM w/ Xeno86's patch fine. The Witcher 1 and Fallout 3 also runs, albeit glitchy.

I don't think more than 1GB w/ Xeno86's patch is necessary...unless someone runs GTA IV which I've tried for months to no avail :c

And about the web browsing argument, it gets more difficult each day, and the sites that are demanding are not working/laggy even with more than 1GB of RAM. It's the web browser's fault, not 98SE per se.

So, until there's a modern game which runs under 98SE fine that requires more than 1GB of RAM, or a new modern web browser, 1GB is all you need.

About swap file, what 98SE era commercial programs benefit from a swap file, does DOS need a swap file as well? Programs that might require it, are written with NT system in mind...I think.

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98SE    14
9 hours ago, jaclaz said:

@98SE

With all due respect :), but really, you DO NOT *need* a swapfile (at all) and surely you DO NOT *want* such a large swapfile (having ramdisk for your loading of an iso "as is" or similar may have some merits, but NOT a swapfile, which is nothing but an extension to available memory that you won't need[1]), I am all for "thought experiments" but maybe here you are taking it to the realm of pure speculation, just for the sake of it. :dubbio:

Why don't you put together a suitable machine and try?

Very likely, even if each and every theory expressed here is valid, you will find in real testing a number of roadblocks (be it BIOS, hardware, software, whatever) that may (please read as "will") likely prevent you from actually achieving what in theory is possible with a sufficient stability and you'll have to settle for "lower standards".

jaclaz

[1] In the real world at the time when Windows 98 was fully supported (and programs were actually written for it), a "typical" machine would have had 64 Mb, sometimes 128 Mb, exceptionally 256 Mb of RAM and respectively 128 Mb, 256Mb and 512 Mb swapfile at the very most.

In other words, no machine at the time ever had more than 256+512=768 Mb of "virtual" RAM (i.e. physical RAM+swapfile) available.

Still they worked fine.

Now, with some tricks, you can have 1 Gb or more of "real" RAM available, that will be more than enough to run *each and every* program written for 98 (+1), unless (and until) some programmer will write an actually useful/working piece of modern  bloatware that will need more RAM.


 

It is not a typical setup but to test the limits of Memory Limitation Patch and its effects.  But also secondary test is how to limit Memory Limitation Patch (which original use was to prevent BSOD during install with systems with too much memory).  After using Memory Limitation Patch 3.5GB is 98SE Programs usable memory.  How do I reduce it to 1GB of 98SE Programs Usable Memory to prevent the above extra 2.5GB from being allocated which in a typical scenario the 2.5GB is better served as a Ramdisk as you state.  Worst case it can be further reduced to 512GB of 98 Programs Usable Memory if software compatibility issues arise.

Edited by 98SE

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98SE    14
3 hours ago, MrMateczko said:

I'm agreeing with jaclaz.

I run NFS: Most Wanted 05 and NFS: Carbon, under 98SE with 1GB RAM w/ Xeno86's patch fine. The Witcher 1 and Fallout 3 also runs, albeit glitchy.

I don't think more than 1GB w/ Xeno86's patch is necessary...unless someone runs GTA IV which I've tried for months to no avail :c

And about the web browsing argument, it gets more difficult each day, and the sites that are demanding are not working/laggy even with more than 1GB of RAM. It's the web browser's fault, not 98SE per se.

So, until there's a modern game which runs under 98SE fine that requires more than 1GB of RAM, or a new modern web browser, 1GB is all you need.

About swap file, what 98SE era commercial programs benefit from a swap file, does DOS need a swap file as well? Programs that might require it, are written with NT system in mind...I think.

Which Xeno86 patch are you referring? 384MB?

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MrMateczko    21

The VCACHE.VXD patch. It makes 3DMark 2001SE works with 1GB of RAM, at least on my rig, without it, the programs errors while benchmarking. It can fix errors.

Though if i think correctly, rloew's RAM patch already includes the VCACHE patch...right?

Edited by MrMateczko

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dencorso    543
19 minutes ago, MrMateczko said:

Though if i think correctly, rloew's RAM patch already includes the VCACHE patch...right?

Yes.

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98SE    14
18 hours ago, MrMateczko said:

The VCACHE.VXD patch. It makes 3DMark 2001SE works with 1GB of RAM, at least on my rig, without it, the programs errors while benchmarking. It can fix errors.

Though if i think correctly, rloew's RAM patch already includes the VCACHE patch...right?

Yes but I want to force limit 98SE to just the first 1GB with the Memory Limitation Patch enabled.  I don't want the entire 3.5GB allocated for 98SE.  I want to reserve the 1GB-4GB for a possible Ramdrive instead.  This will keep it the most compatible as possible and be able to store the program on the Ramdrive with only 4GB installed.

Edited by 98SE

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rloew    93

My 32-Bit RAMDisk automatically reserves 32-Bit RAM. You could setup a 2.5GiB RAMDisk and have 1GiB for Windows if you have a total of 3.5GiB of RAM.

With 4GiB of physical RAM, most BIOSes will remap the 0.5GiB of otherwise unused RAM to the 4-4.5GiB 64-Bit Address Range where another RAMDisk can be placed.

There was no typo in my earlier post. When I said that with 8GiB of installed RAM, you would get a 5GiB 64-Bit RAMDisk, located at 4-9GiB. The extra 64-Bit RAM is due to the relocated RAM from the 3-4 GiB range.

I have seen a few games that have problems with 2GiB or more of System RAM. I had to patch them. You could set RAM just below 2GiB to gain extra compatibility.

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98SE    14
11 hours ago, rloew said:

My 32-Bit RAMDisk automatically reserves 32-Bit RAM. You could setup a 2.5GiB RAMDisk and have 1GiB for Windows if you have a total of 3.5GiB of RAM.

With 4GiB of physical RAM, most BIOSes will remap the 0.5GiB of otherwise unused RAM to the 4-4.5GiB 64-Bit Address Range where another RAMDisk can be placed.

There was no typo in my earlier post. When I said that with 8GiB of installed RAM, you would get a 5GiB 64-Bit RAMDisk, located at 4-9GiB. The extra 64-Bit RAM is due to the relocated RAM from the 3-4 GiB range.

I have seen a few games that have problems with 2GiB or more of System RAM. I had to patch them. You could set RAM just below 2GiB to gain extra compatibility.

So there is no special way to force the 1GB with your Limitation Patch with some syntax or some extra MLP add-on program?  Otherwise it will allocate up to 3.5GiB by default with 4GB installed?  You have to use the 32-bit XMS Ramdisk and create a 2.5GiB Ramdisk in DOS to hog the memory prior to loading into 98SE or deal with the 3.5GiB?

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rloew    93

You can limit the RAM, with or without the RAM Limitation Patch, using the MaxPhysPage setting.

The main point of my Patch was to increase RAM, not limit it. A few people may benefit from the other features of the Patcher.

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98SE    14
On Friday, June 02, 2017 at 8:51 PM, rloew said:

My 32-Bit RAMDisk automatically reserves 32-Bit RAM. You could setup a 2.5GiB RAMDisk and have 1GiB for Windows if you have a total of 3.5GiB of RAM.

With 4GiB of physical RAM, most BIOSes will remap the 0.5GiB of otherwise unused RAM to the 4-4.5GiB 64-Bit Address Range where another RAMDisk can be placed.

There was no typo in my earlier post. When I said that with 8GiB of installed RAM, you would get a 5GiB 64-Bit RAMDisk, located at 4-9GiB. The extra 64-Bit RAM is due to the relocated RAM from the 3-4 GiB range.

I have seen a few games that have problems with 2GiB or more of System RAM. I had to patch them. You could set RAM just below 2GiB to gain extra compatibility.

So the actual BIOS remaps the free memory?  This has nothing to do with your Non XMS  RamDisk or Windows 98 doing the memory location remapping?

What was the MMIO used memory for 32MB, 64MB, 128MB, and 256MB PCIe cards?   I want to give your program a fair test as I have several graphics cards of different memory capacities.  So all legacy PCI and AGP graphic cards will not use any MMIO memory so you will get the entire 1GiB chunk is this correct only PCIe cards are affected?

Regarding your two test programs I still got  those on the backburner.  I've been a little swamped recently with a big mess here so doing some moving and cleaning so I have to reset up the systems for tests after I'm done.  Need more space.  I was going to finish setting up the P4 for 98SE and do some stability tests but I got swamped and the incredible Playoffs and Finals happened.  I also have a recently arrived Z87 board that I need to grab a CPU for testing.  So I should be able to test P4, Z68, Z77, Z87, and Z170 for you to compare your two programs I downloaded when I get a chance.  I also got an Amiga and Atari I have to set up but probably of no interest to you but doing multiple legacy computer platforms.

Have any of your Memory Limitation Patch been sold to any Z170 or Z270 users yet?  I assume if it worked for 98SE then the Non XMS RamDisk should not have a problem according to you.

Also you mentioned you don't have a USB floppy drive.  But I assume you still have the original bootable 98SE CD or at least the installation setup files to burn a modified ISO.  On your Z97 can you boot off that and get to the Command Prompt using F8 method without errors?  Also if you can try and create a custom 98SE bootable CD that just loads Windows 98SE Himem.Sys in the Config.Sys and no other files and no Autoexec.Bat file and test on your Z97 to see if has any errors?  If you don't want to burn a disc you can do a USB bootable flash drive instead for the test.

For the WinME have you tried to enhance any of your mods using those files instead of the 98SE?  Did you notice any increase in memory capacity or stability between the two or better support?  If so I'd rather try a WinME patch.

Edited by 98SE

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