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ragnargd

(failed) Ryzen and Fall of the Roman Empire... sort of...

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1 hour ago, ragnargd said:

...any experiments with boards that have DDR4?

DDR4 working fine on my Intel X99 system that I discussed here.

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14 minutes ago, LoneCrusader said:

DDR4 working fine on my Intel X99 system that I discussed here.

Thank you, i missed that. So, DDR4 itself need not be an issue. This is closing in more and more on the chipset of my board (or, perhaps, AM4 in general, but as long as i'm the only one trying...)

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2017 at 1:48 PM, ragnargd said:

Thank you, i missed that. So, DDR4 itself need not be an issue. This is closing in more and more on the chipset of my board (or, perhaps, AM4 in general, but as long as i'm the only one trying...)

 

I had tried DDR4 in late 2016 on the Skylake Z170.  DOS can boot up on it but certain programs malfunctioned which most of you probably wouldn't have known about or used as I seem to be the first to have used it.  However at the time DDR4's lowest RAM capacity was 4GB and I wasn't interested in installing 98SE on it and the MB I was testing had no PCI slots.  I had not tested the Z77 chipset to verify it could work with 98SE except the ability to install to the desktop but the USB mouse didn't work properly so I retired the project since it wasn't vital.  I might revisit the Z170 after a successful Z77 since I have cracked the 8GB memory limit in my tests then it should work with the 4GB DDR4 I had used for early testing on the Z170.  But I'm more curious about AM4 Ryzen but I was planning to hold out until they released their first APU CPU for it.  But this could be after the board has shut down unless it can continue for a few more months or these get released soon.

Fast forward to  the Z77 I just finished installing the 6600 GT and it worked with the modified drivers.  But it leaves a shutdown issue where you cannot go straight to pure DOS without rebooting.  And yes I've read about the shutdown patch but I will be experimenting later with older driver versions to see what effect using a PCIe card will cause.  This is the first time testing any PCIe card with 98SE with the drivers working.  Originally my plan years ago was to test it on a Socket 775 MB but now that I'm able to have a completely fanless 98SE system running I'm going to keep pushing this idea to get it done on the Z77 which will be able to run DOS/9X/ME/2K/XP/Vista/W7/W10 and purposely skipping the 8.0/8.1.

Edited by 98SE

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, the multi-boot-addiction, i know just too well how you feel... :lol:

I'd really like to see how you fare with Z77, as my own experiments (the same on P67) failed miserably two years ago (i never bothered to report it here).

I still own, as an alternative, the ASrock P67 Extreme 4, which has a good layout, with two PCI-slots available even if you put in two 2-slot-GPUs, able to carry the i7-3770K, and two convenient PS/2-ports.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/P67 Extreme4/index.asp

With my knowledge from today, I's say to expect problems when activating USB2, so you might need a USB add-in-card if you want to use those (that's why the PS/2-ports really are an asset here and on every board worth trying), which eats a PCI-slot.

WIth then just one PCI-slot free (which you will want to use for a compatible sound-card), this forces you to put in a sata-add-in card into an PCI-to-PCIe-adapter for booting w98se, if you want to boot W10 or anything modern from the onboard-ports with full AHCI-support as well. Works, it just is something to think about.

I don't remember if activating the AHCI-SATA ports with SSD/HDD attached makes your system hang during installation, but i think that was the case with me, so that may require some messing around with on/off/disabling those during installation.

This forces the 8111E onboard-lan to be used, for lack of free slots, but, well, since we now have the knowledge how to use the NDIS2-driver on those, it's possible.

Still i'd not necessarily invest money in that platform, as components (Z77/P67 MoBos and CPUs, even RAM nowadays) are rare and really expensive, on the brink of being on the prohibitive side.

My FX 8350/AM3+ is not as fast, and uses much more power when working, but is just so much more convenient, with onboard-sata and onboard-USB2 working out-of-the-box, that i can accept that. And it boots all OS as well (i still have one port free, and consider putting some linux on it again as well, like, i.e., Steam OS).

Edited by ragnargd

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, ragnargd said:

Yeah, the multi-boot-addiction, i know just too well how you feel... :lol:

I'd really like to see how you fare with Z77, as my own experiments (the same on P67) failed miserably two years ago (i never bothered to report it here).

I still own, as an alternative, the ASrock P67 Extreme 4, which has a good layout, with two PCI-slots available even if you put in two 2-slot-GPUs, able to carry the i7-3770K, and two convenient PS/2-ports.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/P67 Extreme4/index.asp

With my knowledge from today, I's say to expect problems when activating USB2, so you might need a USB add-in-card if you want to use those (that's why the PS/2-ports really are an asset here and on every board worth trying), which eats a PCI-slot.

WIth then just one PCI-slot free (which you will want to use for a compatible sound-card), this forces you to put in a sata-add-in card into an PCI-to-PCIe-adapter for booting w98se, if you want to boot W10 or anything modern from the onboard-ports with full AHCI-support as well. Works, it just is something to think about.

I don't remember if activating the AHCI-SATA ports with SSD/HDD attached makes your system hang during installation, but i think that was the case with me, so that may require some messing around with on/off/disabling those during installation.

This forces the 8111E onboard-lan to be used, for lack of free slots, but, well, since we now have the knowledge how to use the NDIS2-driver on those, it's possible.

Still i'd not necessarily invest money in that platform, as components (Z77/P67 MoBos and CPUs, even RAM nowadays) are rare and really expensive, on the brink of being on the prohibitive side.

My FX 8350/AM3+ is not as fast, and uses much more power when working, but is just so much more convenient, with onboard-sata and onboard-USB2 working out-of-the-box, that i can accept that. And it boots all OS as well (i still have one port free, and consider putting some linux on it again as well, like, i.e., Steam OS).

I installed the 98SE using SATA to USB adapter.  I later migrated it to the SATA port so it's running directly off the Intel Sata Controller now in pure SATA mode.  I tried SATA and SATA IDE Compatibility mode and it still booted.

For the USB cards I've recently tested the NEC and the VIA ones.

You can find more about my tests here on it.

 

I got Mame to run as well as DOSBOX on it.  The Ensoniq PCI card I think is encountering some kind of problem either because it is too old being made in the early P1 days and can't handle the multiple streams of audio I am putting it through and it bombs out as if the sound card is stuttering stuck on the same sound.  I'm going to try other Sound cards later but I am convinced the Sound card or the drivers or a combination of both just can't handle the Z77's power.  That's why I was asking you to test the SB Audigy 1 PCI card to let me know if it worked on the Z97 or the AM4.  But your AM4 you can't get to the desktop so far?  If you can find out if your Z97 works fine with the SB Audigy 1 PCI then that would be good news since it has EAX.

 

Did you figure out how to underclock your Ryzen to the lowest speed yet?

 

<<The 8111E onboard-lan to be used, for lack of free slots, but, well, since we now have the knowledge how to use the <<NDIS2-driver on those, it's possible.

Remind me what you did here and I'll double check if any of my other MBs carry that onboard LAN.  I think that's the chipset of the PCIe card I used for the MultiOS setup so it might be a coincidence this chipset might be the best choice to use for 9X/ME LAN card on the PCIe slot.  I still think it might be possible in the future to hack the Intel HD Graphics HDMI video and audio out and run some sort of 7950GT 9X/ME video card with Sound Blaster emulation on it.  This might end up being more powerful and use less wattage and save you a few internal PCIe and PCI slots on the motherboard for USB cards instead all while staying completely inside 98SE or ME.

I don't think most people would use Z77 for 98SE gaming but I don't see why those would go up in price.  It's the much older MBs with ISA slots that have you paying out of your nose.  I hope to see Z68/Z77/Z87/Z97 to drop like it has been while Z170/Z270 and the AM4 MBs take over.  Once I master the Z77 trick it might help me get it to work on AM4.  Most have forgotten old school DOS skills to try it on such a modern chipset.  I'm just one of the few that uses that method for installing all my OS DOS -> W10.

Plus you have to remember before PCIe became in use most people had pretty much switched over to 2000 and XP.  WinME purposely hid DOS so that didn't help and most newer motherboards didn't provide 98SE drivers anymore around the late 900 series chipsets so the people who are doing 98SE gaming are using P4 and some socket 775 MBs with AGP slots.  If these CPUs could be passively cooled I would go for them.  But since my original idea was to do it on the Z77 years ago I just finally had the time to dig into it after I figured out how to get the USB mouse working again which was the main obstacle that stalled the project. (The serial mouse worked but I preferred using an optical mouse).

Edited by 98SE

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6 hours ago, ragnargd said:

With my knowledge from today, I's say to expect problems when activating USB2, so you might need a USB add-in-card if you want to use those (that's why the PS/2-ports really are an asset here and on every board worth trying), which eats a PCI-slot.

USB2 cards come in PCI-E as well. :)

EXSYS EX-11066. And it even has an NEC chipset. Best for compatibility IMO.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

USB2 cards come in PCI-E as well. :)

EXSYS EX-11066. And it even has an NEC chipset. Best for compatibility IMO.

I have tried both PCI and PCIe USB cards so far.  It seems if I used the PCI and PCIe of the same Chipset it hangs before booting to BIOS.  So it might only be possible to mix two different Chipsets one NEC and one VIA.

Looks like great minds think alike.  Did your EXSYS EX-11066 Auto install drivers once it booted into 98SE or did you have to manually add it?

I use the PCIe ones on the Z170 for the XP/7/10 drivers. :)

Looks like the added 9X/ME driver benefit is going to pay off.

Edited by 98SE

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PCIe for that USB-chipset? This is good news. I rather don't read enough on MSFN.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

USB2 cards come in PCI-E as well. :)

EXSYS EX-11066. And it even has an NEC chipset. Best for compatibility IMO.

Its 50$, what about something cheaper for PCI-E and NEC, its possible too?  Like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-PCI-Express-PCIe-card-6-external-2-internal-USB2-0-Ports-NEC-Chip-/222614849630?hash=item33d4e1085e:g:swAAAOSwrGFZk~Dz

Its not cheap, but i not 50$.

Edited by ruthan

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10 hours ago, 98SE said:

I have tried both PCI and PCI USB cards so far.  It seems if I used the PCI and PCIe of the same Chipset it hangs before booting to BIOS.  So it might only be possible to mix two different Chipsets one NEC and one VIA.

Looks like great minds think alike.  Did your EXSYS EX-11066 Auto install drivers once it booted into 98SE or did you have to manually add it?

I use the PCIe ones on the Z170 for the XP/7/10 drivers. :)

Looks like the added 9X/ME driver benefit is going to pay off.

I don't have one of those, I just found it while looking for something else. I have another card made by that company however and it works flawlessly.

8 hours ago, ragnargd said:

PCIe for that USB-chipset? This is good news. I rather don't read enough on MSFN.

:D

6 hours ago, ruthan said:

Its 50$, what about something cheaper for PCI-E and NEC, its possible too?  Like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-PCI-Express-PCIe-card-6-external-2-internal-USB2-0-Ports-NEC-Chip-/222614849630?hash=item33d4e1085e:g:swAAAOSwrGFZk~Dz

Its not cheap, but i not 50$.

Sure there are probably cheaper ones that will work fine. That was just an example from a company that seems to have good quality. Sometimes you get what you pay for though. Buy cheap junk, get cheap junk.

I think the card you linked is listed wrong anyway. It claims USB 2.0 in the title but in the description it says Renesas USB 3.0 chip. This definitely won't work.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

I don't have one of those, I just found it while looking for something else. I have another card made by that company however and it works flawlessly.

:D

Sure there are probably cheaper ones that will work fine. That was just an example from a company that seems to have good quality. Sometimes you get what you pay for though. Buy cheap junk, get cheap junk.

I think the card you linked is listed wrong anyway. It claims USB 2.0 in the title but in the description it says Renesas USB 3.0 chip. This definitely won't work.

Which one did you test PCIe NEC?  Did the 98SE drivers install automatically or did you have to manually add them?

Any other things you had to do to make them work with USB storage drives?

 

19 hours ago, ragnargd said:

PCIe for that USB-chipset? This is good news. I rather don't read enough on MSFN.

I think the news is they exist but just haven't been tested until now.

 

17 hours ago, ruthan said:

Its 50$, what about something cheaper for PCI-E and NEC, its possible too?  Like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-2-0-PCI-Express-PCIe-card-6-external-2-internal-USB2-0-Ports-NEC-Chip-/222614849630?hash=item33d4e1085e:g:swAAAOSwrGFZk~Dz

Its not cheap, but i not 50$.

I tested the PCI USB card with 6 USB ports.  2 ports if you plug a device in it will freeze up 98SE if you plug the devices inside the OS while running or if you plug them in before loading the OS it doesn't make a difference.  So stick with 4 port USB ports or tape over the USB ports that you find that don't work only if you're only using this for 98SE.  I think XP and later OS will be fine for all 6 ports.

Edited by 98SE

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15 hours ago, 98SE said:

Which one did you test PCIe NEC?  Did the 98SE drivers install automatically or did you have to manually add them?

:wacko: I just said I don't have one of those PCI-E cards.

I have a PCI USB2 card from that company that does indeed use an NEC chipset. It is recognized by the standard drivers from NUSB 3.5. It does not require any special rituals in order to use USB Storage Devices.

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Ok, pals, unless someone comes up with an idea for handling the memory-problem, that's fairly it.

I summed up things in the first post.

Let's move on to greener grounds... :yes:

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Quote

Ok, pals, unless someone comes up with an idea for handling the memory-problem, that's fairly it.

Did you tried multiple GPUm best some old PCI 1-4 MB videocard?

As i wrote try modern 32bit Windows to see much memory you will see there, i have X99 board with 924MB of ram in all 32 bit and MSI support finally trying to make new BIOS to fix it.

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