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98 SE SP 3.32

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#1901
dencorso

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The fact that VIA's USBHUB20.SYS is versioned as 4.90.3000.11 is suggestive it might be 9x/ME universal. However, remembering that VIA and Intel use the UHCI standard for USB 1.x while all the other manufacturers use OHCI, I'd say the most relevant tests should be with non-VIA and non-Intel USB controller chips. And I do think we should concentrate on it, before engaging in a hunt for other versions. It's too bad I only have VIA based machines and USB add-on cards (except for my NEC USB 3.0 card, but that's another thing entirely, since I've not yet even got my 98SE to detect it).


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#1902
LoneCrusader

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The fact that VIA's USBHUB20.SYS is versioned as 4.90.3000.11 is suggestive it might be 9x/ME universal. However, remembering that VIA and Intel use the UHCI standard for USB 1.x while all the other manufacturers use OHCI, I'd say the most relevant tests should be with non-VIA and non-Intel USB controller chips. And I do think we should concentrate on it, before engaging in a hunt for other versions. It's too bad I only have VIA based machines and USB add-on cards (except for my NEC USB 3.0 card, but that's another thing entirely, since I've not yet even got my 98SE to detect it).

I tend to prefer using the MS stack if the older versions don't have the bugs with VIA chipsets, but I agree the other option should be tested and considered as well.

I have the same problem you do regarding UHCI/OHCI so I can't help with testing the second option. All of my hardware is Intel based with UHCI USB 1.1 controllers. (And man, has it been a pain for a project currently in development that I've been involved in. :ph34r: )

#1903
PROBLEMCHYLD

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I tend to prefer using the MS stack if the older versions don't have the bugs with VIA chipsets, but I agree the other option should be tested and considered as well.

Me too :yes: The thing is, people who have other chipsets, will using the VIA file cause problems? All of my chipsets are intel as well. My thing is, if the VIA file is not a universal solution, then we are back to square one. It seems the MS version works with everything except VIA. At least this is what has been reported.

I found USBHUB20.SYS v.5.0.2195.5605 inside this package (issued for Q319973). There may be others, but I'll have to look through all of the many, many packages I downloaded again. :wacko: Maybe someone can test that version and see if it has the same bugs as the later one... :unsure:

dencorso, since you do have a VIA chipset, can you test the file for us?

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 22 November 2012 - 01:41 AM.

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#1904
dencorso

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Sure. As soon as I reboot into 98SE, which means later today. I've already put the Usbhub20.sys v. 5.0.2195.5605 in place for the test, though.

#1905
Drugwash

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Guys, what exactly is the problem with MS' usbhub20.sys and Win98SE? I forgot and finding that info in such long topic isn't easy. Besides, I'm looking at my VIA VT6202 USB 2.0 Hub driver details panel and it says usbhub20.sys 5.00.2195.6891 (Microsoft). The controller also uses a MS driver usbehci.sys 5.00.2195.6882, with USBPORT.SYS 5.00.2195.5652.

My Lexmark X1150 printer/scanner works fine (used to, cartriges are now dry), the CSR Bluetooth dongle is also active and running fine and whatever USB Flash stick I plug into the only free outlet, works without any issue.

So, again, what seems to be the problem with that driver and VIA USB chipsets...?

Edited by Drugwash, 22 November 2012 - 03:29 AM.


#1906
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Guys, what exactly is the problem with MS' usbhub20.sys and Win98SE? I forgot and finding that info in such long topic isn't easy. Besides, I'm looking at my VIA VT6202 USB 2.0 Hub driver details panel and it says usbhub20.sys 5.00.2195.6891 (Microsoft). The controller also uses a MS driver usbehci.sys 5.00.2195.6882, with USBPORT.SYS 5.00.2195.5652.

My Lexmark X1150 printer/scanner works fine (used to, cartriges are now dry), the CSR Bluetooth dongle is also active and running fine and whatever USB Flash stick I plug into the only free outlet, works without any issue.

So, again, what seems to be the problem with that driver and VIA USB chipsets...?

I have been trying to figure out the same thing. I don't understand how the MS file works with your Via but not others.

I confirm xRayeR's results:
In my experience, the last USBPORT.SYS to work OK in Win 98SE is v. 5.0.2195.5652, while for USBSTOR.SYS (in case one installs it with WDMSTUB.SYS v. 5.0.0.6 from NUSB30E) it's v. 5.0.2195.6773 (from KB823086). And for USBEHCI.SYS, the latest version that works is v. 5.0.2195.6882 (the latest available for W2k, check it here). Now, in what regards USBHUB20.SYS, it's more complicated: almost all chipsets work ok with v. 5.0.2195.6891, but VIA's don't. For VIA's chipsets, one needs VIA's own USBHUB20.SYS v. 4.90.3000.11 (findable inside VIA_USB2_V270p1-L-M), in order to avoid BSOD's on removing (hot-deplugging) USB 2.0 HUBs from the machine. Note that it must be substituted by hand, in true DOS, because NUSB3.3 contains v. 5.0.2195.6891, so it's really a downgrade.

Yippe! I did have a USBHUB20.SYS v. 4.90.3000.11 that I found last week. Just booted the sp3 Compaq 6350 into dos and replaced the existing usbhub20 with the via.. rebooted... and voila ... no bsod or crashes anywhere in sight. I've been plugging and unplugging various flash drives for the last 20 minutes and each new one is recognized and the system plays nice when I remove any of them. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks you guys.

One system down and five more to test. This is fun.


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#1907
Drugwash

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So if i understood correctly, the only issue would be "BSOD's on removing (hot-deplugging) USB 2.0 HUBs", as per dencorso's quote above.
I'm not quite sure if "unplugging USB 2.0 HUBS" is the accurate statement, or if it's about USB 2.0 DEVICES. Truth be told, I never unplug any USB device without first ejecting it from the systray icon, especially to make sure any possible cache has been flushed, in order to avoid corrupt files.
However, if that's the only issue, then we may be better off trying to fix it using this particular file set through patches of some kind, instead of going around looking for harder-to-implement solutions.

#1908
PROBLEMCHYLD

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Here is another crazy idea. I can remove USBHUB20.SYS from Main Updates altogether. After that, create a batch file to prompt users to install the specific version for their systems. Me personally, I'm not looking to downgrade files but I am and will be considerate of others. So far using the newer files has only increase performance because no has complained about any decrease in performance. And yes, my system flies :thumbup

Warning! Remove all USB devices before continuing........
Do your system contain any VIA Technologies hardware? Press (Y)es (N)o

If no option is chosen, then you will not have any USB 2.0 drivers unless you manually place the file in its respective directory. Doing it this way, the wrong driver would never get installed. I just need someone to create the batch file. Then everyone will be happy :thumbup

P.S
Then we are back to the people who have multiple USB2.0 devices. We need a one file fits all or trouble might be headed our way :o Drugwash makes a good point, I would rather patch the Microsoft version thats known to work with all chipset except VIA then to use the VIA which might not work with most chipsets.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 22 November 2012 - 11:41 AM.

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#1909
dencorso

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I confirm xRayeR's results:
In my experience, the last USBPORT.SYS to work OK in Win 98SE is v. 5.0.2195.5652, while for USBSTOR.SYS (in case one installs it with WDMSTUB.SYS v. 5.0.0.6 from NUSB30E) it's v. 5.0.2195.6773 (from KB823086). And for USBEHCI.SYS, the latest version that works is v. 5.0.2195.6882 (the latest available for W2k, check it here). Now, in what regards USBHUB20.SYS, it's more complicated: almost all chipsets work ok with v. 5.0.2195.6891, but VIA's don't. For VIA's chipsets, one needs VIA's own USBHUB20.SYS v. 4.90.3000.11 (findable inside VIA_USB2_V270p1-L-M), in order to avoid BSOD's on removing (hot-deplugging) USB 2.0 HUBs from the machine. Note that it must be substituted by hand, in true DOS, because NUSB3.3 contains v. 5.0.2195.6891, so it's really a downgrade.

Also non-letal BSODs are possible when disabling/removing controller or hub.

This issue mentioned by Tihiy is precisely the one due to USBHUB20.SYS v. 5.0.2195.6891 and VIA chipsets. While one can recover from the BSOD, the only sensible thing to do at that point is to restart or shutdown the machine.

So if i understood correctly, the only issue would be "BSOD's on removing (hot-deplugging) USB 2.0 HUBs", as per dencorso's quote above.
I'm not quite sure if "unplugging USB 2.0 HUBS" is the accurate statement, or if it's about USB 2.0 DEVICES. Truth be told, I never unplug any USB device without first ejecting it from the systray icon, especially to make sure any possible cache has been flushed, in order to avoid corrupt files.
However, if that's the only issue, then we may be better off trying to fix it using this particular file set through patches of some kind, instead of going around looking for harder-to-implement solutions.

As far as I remember, one has to insert a true USB 2.0 hub, then plug one or more USB 2.0 devices to it, then remove them. Then, if and when one removes the hub, and only then, presto: instant BSOD! I've only had 1st hand experience with hubs, to reproduce this particular BSOD, although Tihiy did mention controllers, too. The hub I used, and still use is one like this (care because there are USB 1.x and USB 2.0 versions of it, and only the USB 2.0 causes the BSOD):
Posted Image

#1910
TmEE

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I got an all VIA machine to play with now.

3.10 has been solid for me so far, but looks like after installing it the start menu is having the old "windows 98" graphics.
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#1911
PROBLEMCHYLD

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I got an all VIA machine to play with now.

3.10 has been solid for me so far, but looks like after installing it the start menu is having the old "windows 98" graphics.

The Windows start menu changes to the default by design because people wanted the original icons/start banner. This is not a bug. You will need to check the box Windows Millennium Edition/Windows 2000 Theme for the updated icons, only after you have installed Main Updates. Do USBHUB20.SYS 5.0.2195.6891 work with your VIA chipset? Thank you very much for helping me get SP3.x stable :thumbup I think 3.10 will be for many users to come.

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 22 November 2012 - 07:14 PM.

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#1912
LoneCrusader

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As far as I remember, one has to insert a true USB 2.0 hub, then plug one or more USB 2.0 devices to it, then remove them. Then, if and when one removes the hub, and only then, presto: instant BSOD! I've only had 1st hand experience with hubs, to reproduce this particular BSOD, although Tihiy did mention controllers, too. The hub I used, and still use is one like this (care because there are USB 1.x and USB 2.0 versions of it, and only the USB 2.0 causes the BSOD):
Posted Image

Hmmm... :unsure:

This is HIGHLY speculative. No idea whether this would be the case or not!


Any chance that such a device would be treated as a "Composite Device?"

If so, there may or may not be differences in behavior now that changes have been made to NUSB, etc.

Under Win98SE and Win2K, composite devices use USBHUB.SYS (or USBHUB20.SYS for USB2).

Under WinME and WinXP, composite devices use USBCCGP.SYS.

Now that the Windows ME USB1.1 stack and ME-style USB.INF (with use of USBCCGP.SYS) has been implemented, such devices MAY not depend on USBHUB20.SYS anymore.

So the bug may not even exist at all so long as one has a complete collection of the latest unofficial USB updates. :blink:


Someone who knows more about this than me please chime in... :ph34r: :lol:

#1913
PROBLEMCHYLD

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Sorry guys for the inconvenience, but I forgot to change the version number in a few INF files. This only applies to some of the options installed by SP3.10. Main Updates are ok and all options should install properly now. You will only witness errors in SP3.10 depending on which options you choose. I have release 3.11 and fixed all issues. Installation time is now at 4 minutes 10 seconds instead of 3 minutes 52 seconds approximately :( :} :o :no:

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#1914
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Warning! Remove all USB devices before continuing........
Do your system contain any VIA Technologies hardware? Press (Y)es (N)o

A small tool could automatically detect the presence of a VIA controller/hub. Remember not everyone using 9x may be computer-literate enough to know what hardware they're operating.
Unfortunately, the tools I can build are all quite large to be used for a single operation. I promised myself I'd try to create a SP installer from scratch, complete with full memory detection, hardware detection, files patching (Explorer icons and all) and other necessary features, but I'm not sure I'll get to see this dream come true, due to the strong heartaches I've been having since yesterday. :(

In the mean time, if those BSOD errors are recoverable, there could be a fair warning about this possiblity at install time and just let it be until we manage to come up with a reasonable solution. Personally I have no such external USB 2.0 HUB to test with; the only external hub on my main machine is the one created by the Lexmark by the name of Generic USB Hub, which is driven by usbhub.sys 5.00.2195.6689 and USBCCGP.SYS 5.1.2600.5585 (just like the other USB 1.1 Root Hubs from the on-board chipset) and is connected to one of the VIA USB 2.0 ports.

#1915
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...
but I'm not sure I'll get to see this dream come true, due to the strong heartaches I've been having since yesterday. :(

...usbhub.sys 5.00.2195.6689...

Always put your health first. You will get to it someday ;)


Do you mean USBHUB20.SYS? :unsure:

#1916
dencorso

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I have to report that, despite my best efforts, I've been utterly unable to elicit a BSOD from Usbhub20.sys v. 5.0.2195.5605. :yes:
Rest assured that the hub I used is not seen as a Composite Device, but simpliy as a "Generic USB Hub" (USB 2.0, High Speed) from Alcor Micro (VID=0x058F; PID=0x6254).

#1917
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I have to report that, despite my best efforts, I've been utterly unable to elicit a BSOD from Usbhub20.sys v. 5.0.2195.5605. :yes:
Rest assured that the hub I used is not seen as a Composite Device, but simpliy as a "Generic USB Hub" (USB 2.0, High Speed) from Alcor Micro (VID=0x058F; PID=0x6254).

Aha! :w00t:

Only bad thing is now I'm going to have to dig around through all those files and see if there are any versions later than 5.0.2195.5605 but before 5.0.2195.6891. :wacko: :lol:

#1918
dencorso

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Well, AFAIK, Win2k SP4 has v. 5.0.2195.6655 and KB829759 has v. 5.0.2195.6824, but there should be plenty more with lower numbers... :}
But let's let people test v. 5.0.2195.5605 some more, before starting that hunt...

#1919
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...
but I'm not sure I'll get to see this dream come true, due to the strong heartaches I've been having since yesterday. :(

...usbhub.sys 5.00.2195.6689...

Always put your health first. You will get to it someday ;)


Do you mean USBHUB20.SYS? :unsure:

I don't think so. There sure is a usbhub.sys 5.00.2195.6689 (USB 1.x) but I don't think that version of usbhub20.sys was ever released.

#1920
LoneCrusader

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Well, AFAIK, Win2k SP4 has v. 5.0.2195.6655 and KB829759 has v. 5.0.2195.6824, but there should be plenty more with lower numbers... :}
But let's let people test v. 5.0.2195.5605 some more, before starting that hunt...

Sounds good. I don't think I'm up to that search tonight anyhow... :zzz:

I don't think so. There sure is a usbhub.sys 5.00.2195.6689 (USB 1.x) but I don't think that version of usbhub20.sys was ever released.

I thought the version number didn't sound right, but USBHUB.SYS should be 4.90.3002 on a 98SE system with the current updates, unless some Win2K USB1 stack files have been added... :unsure:

EDIT:
I remember now, some discussion was made earlier about using the Win2K USB1.1 stack. Not a matter of universal agreement as I recall. :angel

Edited by LoneCrusader, 23 November 2012 - 02:31 AM.


#1921
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The Windows start menu changes to the default by design because people wanted the original icons/start banner. This is not a bug. You will need to check the box Windows Millennium Edition/Windows 2000 Theme for the updated icons, only after you have installed Main Updates. Do USBHUB20.SYS 5.0.2195.6891 work with your VIA chipset? Thank you very much for helping me get SP3.x stable :thumbup I think 3.10 will be for many users to come.

Aha, I did not know main updates revert the graphics, that is good to know ^^

I will see what file there is, I certainly have had no problems so far.
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#1922
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I don't think so. There sure is a usbhub.sys 5.00.2195.6689 (USB 1.x) but I don't think that version of usbhub20.sys was ever released.

I thought the version number didn't sound right, but USBHUB.SYS should be 4.90.3002 on a 98SE system with the current updates, unless some Win2K USB1 stack files have been added... :unsure:

EDIT:
I remember now, some discussion was made earlier about using the Win2K USB1.1 stack. Not a matter of universal agreement as I recall. :angel

It's usbhub.sys alright, not 2.0. Can't remember when and how it got installed - either through a NUSB update, or by my manual fiddling with driver files. It's been a while though since I let this system settle, as the other one decided to die on me (HDD developed 4000+ bad sectors) and I need it for my programming hobby. However, in the past I used to replace all kinds of system files from whatever OS was needed, when some newer application cried for missing APIs. My Windows folder is currently 1.72GB, complete with .NET 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0.

#1923
jaclaz

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Very possibly I am wrong :unsure: , but checking WHY exactly a given new version was posted as hotfix might give some hints and possibly let us decide that after all a previous version would be preferrable (or not):
http://blogs.msdn.co...ws-version.aspx

jaclaz

#1924
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I have to report that, despite my best efforts, I've been utterly unable to elicit a BSOD from Usbhub20.sys v. 5.0.2195.5605. :yes:
Rest assured that the hub I used is not seen as a Composite Device, but simpliy as a "Generic USB Hub" (USB 2.0, High Speed) from Alcor Micro (VID=0x058F; PID=0x6254).

That's great :w00t: Now that we know its possible to use the Microsoft version with VIA devices, we should look into maybe patching the latest version instead of backtracking. If it is not possible to patch the latest version, I will downgrade the file, but continue to use the newer version on my own system. :yes:

I don't think so. There sure is a usbhub.sys 5.00.2195.6689 (USB 1.x) but I don't think that version of usbhub20.sys was ever released.

The SP installs version USBHUB.SYS 5.0.2195.7006 :thumbup

Very possibly I am wrong :unsure: , but checking WHY exactly a given new version was posted as hotfix might give some hints and possibly let us decide that after all a previous version would be preferrable (or not):
http://blogs.msdn.co...ws-version.aspx

jaclaz

Thanks, but all those hotfixes are already included in SP using the latest compatible files :lol: There are more Windows 2000 and XP (combined) in SP than there are Win98. Way to go MSFN. I even thought about changing the name to Unofficial Windows 98 Second Edition Hybrid Pack becuase it has files from almost every operating system and yes, they WORK!

Edited by PROBLEMCHYLD, 23 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

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#1925
dencorso

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Bear in mind that the issue with USBHUB20.SYS is *very* specific: it requires one to actually remove a USB 2.0 hub to manifest the BSOD, and then, if one hits <Enter> two or three times (IIRR), one does get back to the desktop and can restart all right, or even continue to work (although the OS is not necessarily safe to be used after recovering from a BSOD). The Win 9x/ME and 2k USB stack is peculiar, because it's bifurcated: even if the physical connectors/ports are the same (which they can perfectly be), the OS treats USB 1.x and USB 2.0 communications as two separate things (while Win XP and higher adopt a unified USB view). So one must have a hub, it must be a 2.0 hub and it must have actually been detected as a 2.0 hub on that particular insertion (sometimes USB 2.0 devices are not detected as 2.0, for some random reason). These three factors one can check using USBVIEW. At this point one inserts at least one USB 2.0 mass storage device, lets the system read it, then safely remove the device, letting the hub stay. The hub itself is not a mass storage device, so it cannot be stopped or ejected, before removal. So after letting the hub remain for at least 20 seconds after safe removal of the mass storage device, one may grab the hub and remove it. Then the BSOD happens. If, instead of removing just the mass storage device, then waiting, then removing the hub one removes the hub with the mass storage device still connected to it, the BSOD also happens. But if one never removes the hub, one'll never see the BSOD. Sorry, this description became long-winded, but I want to make it clear how to test for this BSOD. And, of course, if one doesn't have a VIA USB 2.0 controller, then there's nothing to test.




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