[Petr]

PsycoUnc, on Feb 5 2006, 02:38 AM, said:

IAA: -some older intel chipsets can NOT use the latest versions, and Intel (in some places) notes this; one of my puters has 815 chipset, and the latest IAA totally screwed everything... upon research, I found intel notes mentioning that certain chipsets must use older IAA...

It is described here: http://support.intel...b/cs-015001.htm

Quote

# Intel Application Accelerator version 2.3 does not support the Intel® 845MP and Intel® 845MZ chipsets. For support, use Intel Application Accelerator version 2.2.2.
# Intel Application Accelerator version 2.3 does not support the Intel 830 Chipset family. For support, use Intel Application Accelerator version 2.2.2.
# The Intel Application Accelerator is not compatible with the Intel® 815EM chipset.

http://support.intel.com/support/chipsets/...b/cs-009319.htm

Quote

If you are using large Western Digital* hard drives that are larger than 137GB, it is recommended that you install version 2.3 of the Intel® Application Accelerator.

http://support.intel.com/support/chipsets/...b/cs-001410.htm

Quote

The Intel® Application Accelerator will not work with the following Intel® chipsets:

* Intel® 440BX chipset
* Intel® 440LX chipset
* Intel® 440EX chipset
* Intel® 440GX chipset
* Intel® 440FX chipset
* Intel® 430FX chipset
* Intel® 430VX chipset
* Intel® 430HX chipset
* Intel® 430TX chipset

This is really interesting. The installer really refuses to install IAA2.3 on these systems, but the driver itself recognizes PIIX, PIIX3, PIIX southbridges and what's real surprise, IAA2.3 package contains hidden INF file for these chipsets:

[INTEL_HDC]
%PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_1230.DeviceDesc% = DUAL_GOOD_IDE, PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_1230	; Device ID for Intel PIIX  (DUAL_GOOD_IDE)
%PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7010.DeviceDesc% = DUAL_GOOD_IDE, PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7010	; Device ID for Intel PIIX3 (DUAL_GOOD_IDE)
%PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7111.DeviceDesc% = DUAL_GOOD_IDE, PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7111	; Device ID for Intel PIIX4 (DUAL_GOOD_IDE)
%MF\GOODPRIMARY.DeviceDesc%		= GOOD_IDE, MF\GOODPRIMARY
%MF\GOODSECONDARY.DeviceDesc%	  = GOOD_IDE, MF\GOODSECONDARY

Does anybody know if there are any problems with these older chipsets and IAA? I tried to install it on older BX board and everything looks fine so far. This results in two benefits
- 48-bit LBA support
- real disk names in Device Manager (not DISK TYPE47)
Any drawbacks or compatbility problems?

Petr

This post has been edited by Petr: 05 February 2006 - 03:36 AM

[erpdude8]

RJARRRPCGP, on Feb 4 2006, 12:01 AM, said:

azagahl, on Feb 3 2006, 02:30 PM, said:

I highly recommend that you should check your ram modules with a program such that MemTest

MemTest never helped me; IMHO Prime95 is much better at revealing RAM errors.
Especially if you choose Advanced settings (Password 9876) and then Priority 9, followed by Torture Test.

Prime95 having errors usually means that the processor (not RAM) is unstable. The motherboard may not be giving the processor chip enough Vcore.

where can I get the Prime95 program, azagahl & RJARRRPCGP?

Gape, on Feb 3 2006, 03:56 AM, said:

You think OFFICIAL service packs are perfect ? IMO, they're not. For example, my old machine (which has old VIA Apollo VPX chipset), has serious problems with XP Service Pack 2.

of course, service packs of any kind whether official or unofficial aren't perfect. when I first installed XP SP2 on my brother's xp laptop, it hosed the Smart Link modem drivers and the modem didnt work properly. Smart Link had to post up a newer modem driver a few months after SP2 was released to fix the problem. even the Win2000 SP4 pack can cause some problems on certain Win2k machines.

jimmsta, on Feb 2 2006, 09:21 PM, said:

not NEVER... I think that the majority of people that try this out either has good results, or disasters like this. Unofficial doesn't mean bad... it just means non-production quality, and possibly also alpha-quality bugs... It's a luck of the draw, I guess. (Although it seems that most people DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM with the pack).

I even installed the unofficial Win98se SP on an old Pentium 1 PC and on a Pentium 3 PC and the SP worked fine on both computers I've tested. Maybe the pack is incompatible with emarkay's laptop computer.

I strongly agree with PsycoUnc about Norton software. DUMP IT ASAP! Norton is a major resource hog and should NOT be used on slow machines. even on fast PCs, Norton can drag performance down unless you have installed the fastest CPU available and you have at least a gig of RAM installed.

use an alternative program for norton.

[MDGx]

erpdude8:

Prime95:
http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm

[erpdude8]

Petr, on Feb 5 2006, 03:25 AM, said:

This is really interesting. The installer really refuses to install IAA2.3 on these systems, but the driver itself recognizes PIIX, PIIX3, PIIX southbridges and what's real surprise, IAA2.3 package contains hidden INF file for these chipsets:

[INTEL_HDC]
%PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_1230.DeviceDesc% = DUAL_GOOD_IDE, PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_1230; Device ID for Intel PIIX  (DUAL_GOOD_IDE)
%PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7010.DeviceDesc% = DUAL_GOOD_IDE, PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7010; Device ID for Intel PIIX3 (DUAL_GOOD_IDE)
%PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7111.DeviceDesc% = DUAL_GOOD_IDE, PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_7111; Device ID for Intel PIIX4 (DUAL_GOOD_IDE)
%MF\GOODPRIMARY.DeviceDesc%		= GOOD_IDE, MF\GOODPRIMARY
%MF\GOODSECONDARY.DeviceDesc%	  = GOOD_IDE, MF\GOODSECONDARY

Does anybody know if there are any problems with these older chipsets and IAA? I tried to install it on older BX board and everything looks fine so far. This results in two benefits
- 48-bit LBA support
- real disk names in Device Manager (not DISK TYPE47)
Any drawbacks or compatbility problems?

Petr

Good find. The hidden INF files inside the IAA 2.3 pack are named W98_PIIX [for Win98 systems], WME_PIIX [for WinME systems] and W2K_PIIX [for Win2k/XP systems]. Use Snoopy81's WinPack tool to open the data1.cab or data2.cab files inside the IAA 2.3 pack (you'll need to extract those .cab files first by viewing iaa23_enu.exe in Winzip). You can get the Winpack utility here:
http://snoopy81.ifra.../en/winpack.htm
then you can extract the W98_PIIX, WME_PIIX or W2K_PIIX file and then rename any one of them as the intelata.inf file.

Also bundled in the IAA 2.3 package are the Q274370 Cdvsd.vxd hotfixes for Win98 & WinME.

Drawbacks? yes. Installing IAA 2.3 on supported or unsupported systems will rename and disable the SMARTVSD.VXD driver (on Win98/ME PCs) as this file causes conflicts with IAA.

MDGx, on Feb 6 2006, 09:36 PM, said:

erpdude8:

Prime95:
http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm

Thanks MDGx.


Too bad Intel Application Accelerator does not work at all under Win95. It will work under NT4 BUT with SP6a installed.

[Petr]

erpdude8, on Feb 7 2006, 11:55 PM, said:

Drawbacks? yes. Installing IAA 2.3 on supported or unsupported systems will rename and disable the SMARTVSD.VXD driver (on Win98/ME PCs) as this file causes conflicts with IAA.

SMARTVSD.VXD is replaced by INTELVSD.VXD.

Petr

[emarkay]

OK, well, I need to reinstall everything - I have a bad HDU and a replacement is on the way, SO....

If anyone here wants me to test things, now's the time.... Tell me what, how, where and why and I'll do it.

Let me know.

MRK

[Gape]

emarkay, on Feb 8 2006, 03:03 AM, said:

OK, well, I need to reinstall everything - I have a bad HDU and a replacement is on the way, SO....

If anyone here wants me to test things, now's the time.... Tell me what, how, where and why and I'll do it.

Let me know.

* Check that is your BIOS latest?
* You must install Intel Chipset Software Utility, and IAA 2.3. (Your chipset should support IAA 2.3, I got your "System Information" email, thanks.)

[emarkay]

Correst what I have is:

Bios is the A09 - 01/24/2003
Description: Optiplex GX110 A09 FlashBIOS
Latest listed.

Chipset is:

Z0377C01chipset.exe
Intel 800 Series Integrated Chipset, Driver,
Windows 95, Windows 98, English, Multi System, v. 2.00, A01
Release Date: 09/20/1999
Description: Intel 810 Chipset A01

and is supplanted by thest newest Intel files:

infinst_enu - intel chipset driver v631007.exe
Ver:5.1.1.1002 Date:12/12/2003 Size:1713 (KB)
OS:Windows Server* 2003, Windows* 2000, Windows* 98 SE,
Windows* Me, Windows* XP Home Edition, Windows* XP Professional

and

iaa23_enu - intel application accelerator v23.exe
(1973KB) 2.3 11/13/2002
OS:Windows NT* 4.0, Windows* 2000, Windows* 98,
Windows* 98 SE, Windows* Me, Windows* XP Home Edition,
Windows* XP Professional


When my replacement HDU arrives next week I will install the latest 89SE SP and report on what happens

I will install Win98SE, then video driver, then MS Security disc, then Firewall, then Windows Update , then install 98SESP. IS IT OK TO LOAD FIREWALL, video driver, AND WINDOWS UPDATES FIRST BEFORE INSTALLING 98SESP?

[erpdude8]

emarkay, on Feb 8 2006, 03:12 PM, said:

When my replacement HDU arrives next week I will install the latest 89SE SP and report on what happens

I will install Win98SE, then video driver, then MS Security disc, then Firewall, then Windows Update , then install 98SESP. IS IT OK TO LOAD FIREWALL, video driver, AND WINDOWS UPDATES FIRST BEFORE INSTALLING 98SESP?

emarkay, you mus DISABLE your firewall software before installing any Windows Updates and the Win98se SP. the firewall software may interfere with the update process and screw things up. Turn off ALL antivirus and firewall software before installing the Win98 update or Win98se service pack.

Petr, on Feb 7 2006, 05:08 PM, said:

SMARTVSD.VXD is replaced by INTELVSD.VXD.

Petr

Side effects of using the IAA drivers Intelata.mpd and Intelvsd.vxd and having Nero 6.x installed is that Nero 6.x causes "Unspecified target error" messages on my WinME computer when reformatting a CD-Rewritable disc. After that error message appeared, the formatting process was botched. I kept on pressing the Eject button on my CD-burner but to no avail. Had to restart the computer to make the CD-RW drive work properly again. I did not have this problem with Nero 5.5.10.56.

 nero6err.jpg (5.94K)
Number of downloads: 30

I even took out the cd-burner drive and put in a different one (an HP cd-writer kind) and using IAA and Nero 6 and I STILL got the "Unspecified target error" message when reformatting a cd-rw disc. So it is NOT the CD-burner that is the problem. It could a bug in Nero 6.x or a bug with the IAA driver.

I will remove the IAA drivers and revert back to the generic Microsoft WinME ATA drivers. The MS ata drivers work just fine with Nero 6.x. Or maybe I should remove the Nero 6.x software I have on my computer [v6.3.1.25] and revert back to Nero 5.5.10.56 which worked fine with the IAA drivers.

Maybe this problem has been resolved in Nero 7.

This post has been edited by erpdude8: 08 February 2006 - 06:40 PM

[emarkay]

erpdude8, on Feb 8 2006, 07:35 PM, said:

emarkay, you must DISABLE your firewall software before installing any Windows Updates and the Win98se SP. the firewall software may interfere with the update process and screw things up. Turn off ALL antivirus and firewall software before installing the Win98 update or Win98se service pack.

I have it installed but disabled when loading the SESP2. (I disconnect from the Internet while installing).

I have firewall/AV installed and ENABLED when connected to the 'Net, including getting the MS Windows Updates. Never noticed a problem before.
Maybe I should get the 'hard copies ' of all the MS Update files (see previous list) and then I won't need to be connected.

IN THAT CASE - DO I LOAD THE MS updated BEFORE I load the 98SESP2 or AFTER???

Thanks for replies!

MRK

[Eck]

Easiest way is to install the Service Pack, then check for the Windows Updates that are still needed. I don't think there's a problem having your firewall enabled while Windows Update does its thing. Just have everything else turned off.

Be sure to check out Gape's thread in the stickies with his recommended install order. That works well. MDGx also has one with slight variations in his readme in 98SE2ME program.

Here's mine -

-Motherboard drivers
-IE6SP1
-98 Resource Kit
-DOTNET 1.1, SP1, 2.0
-DX9.0c from the August redist
-Videocard Driver
-WMP9
-98SE Service Pack
-All hardware and drivers
-Office or WorksSuite, whatever you use
-All MDGx Windows updates fixes addons, IE same, DX same, WMP same
-Firewall
-Connect
-Windows Update (won't be much if you did all that stuff from mdgx.com. Download and cdr them.
-Office Update
-98SE2ME
-Maximus Decim MDAC and USB updates
-Disc Scanner run and Defragger run
-Firefox, Thunderbird, plugins (Quicktime, RealPlayer, Adobe Reader, Flash, Shockwave, whatever)
-DivX
-Nero
-DVD (ATI MMC or whatever)
-Virus Scanner
-Have fun

That order (approximately) works for me.

This post has been edited by Eck: 08 February 2006 - 08:26 PM

[erpdude8]

Follow-up on my last post on Intel Application Accelerator and Nero 6.x software:

I even updated the Nero software from v6.3.1.25 to v6.6.1.4 (latest release
of Nero 6.6 posted 1-31-2006) and testing it with IAA v2.3. Still getting those
"Unspecified target error" messages (this time under Nero 6.6) after reformatting
a cd-rw disc and/or sometimes while burning a cd-r/cd-rw disc.

 nero6err_2.jpg (5.86K)
Number of downloads: 7

Good thing I've tested IAA & Nero 6.x software with the previous version
of IAA [v2.22]. Version 2.22 seems to get along with Nero 6.x software and
does NOT cause Unspecified Target Error messages. Looks like IAA 2.3 does
not get along with Nero 6 [versions 6.0 to 6.6] and IAA 2.22 is the last
version supported under laptop/notebook computers. IAA 2.22 may seem
a little less buggy than IAA 2.3.

Wonder if version 2.22 of Intel Application Accelerator drivers can support
48-bit LBA extensions and support 137Gb+ hard drives.

So I dumped the IAA 2.3 drivers and will use IAA 2.22 drivers on my WinME
system instead since it does not give Nero 6.x fits. Version 2.2.0.2126
of the intelata.mpd & intelvsd.vxd driver files can be used on both desktop
and laptop PCs with barely no problems.

Version 2.3.0.2160 of the intelata.mpd & intelvsd.vxd driver files should
only be used on desktop PCs w/out Nero 6.x software and should NOT be used
on any laptop/notebook computers as they can cause undesirable side effects
on laptops. If you're going to use IAA on laptop PCs, use version 2.22 and
avoid v2.3.

BTW/FYI: Intel Application Accelerator replaces/supersedes the Intel Ultra
ATA Storage Driver Software.

This post has been edited by erpdude8: 10 February 2006 - 06:49 AM

[LLXX]

If the IAA's EIDE driver supports 48bit LBA, would it be possible to use them on a non-Intel chipset? From what I've seen, the EIDE primary and secondary ports have been at the same addresses ever since the late 1980s when IDE drives first came out. My suspicion is that these drivers have nothing to do with Intel chipset-specific commands/ports, and will work fine as an ESDI_506.PDR replacement.

[Petr]

LLXX, on Feb 10 2006, 10:14 PM, said:

If the IAA's EIDE driver supports 48bit LBA, would it be possible to use them on a non-Intel chipset? From what I've seen, the EIDE primary and secondary ports have been at the same addresses ever since the late 1980s when IDE drives first came out. My suspicion is that these drivers have nothing to do with Intel chipset-specific commands/ports, and will work fine as an ESDI_506.PDR replacement.

Some modification has to be done. I tried IAA on a PC with ICH-6 and it did not work, even if I changed the PCI ID inside the driver. I tried to compare IDE config registers for ICH-4, ICH-5, ICH-6 and ICH-7 and there is almost no difference - but IAA works on ICH-4 and older southbridges only.

Petr

[erpdude8]

erpdude8, on Feb 10 2006, 06:47 AM, said:

Follow-up on my last post on Intel Application Accelerator and Nero 6.x software:

I even updated the Nero software from v6.3.1.25 to v6.6.1.4 (latest release
of Nero 6.6 posted 1-31-2006) and testing it with IAA v2.3. Still getting those
"Unspecified target error" messages (this time under Nero 6.6) after reformatting
a cd-rw disc and/or sometimes while burning a cd-r/cd-rw disc.

attachment

Good thing I've tested IAA & Nero 6.x software with the previous version
of IAA [v2.22]. Version 2.22 seems to get along with Nero 6.x software and
does NOT cause Unspecified Target Error messages. Looks like IAA 2.3 does
not get along with Nero 6 [versions 6.0 to 6.6] and IAA 2.22 is the last
version supported under laptop/notebook computers. IAA 2.22 may seem
a little less buggy than IAA 2.3.

Wonder if version 2.22 of Intel Application Accelerator drivers can support
48-bit LBA extensions and support 137Gb+ hard drives.

So I dumped the IAA 2.3 drivers and will use IAA 2.22 drivers on my WinME
system instead since it does not give Nero 6.x fits. Version 2.2.0.2126
of the intelata.mpd & intelvsd.vxd driver files can be used on both desktop
and laptop PCs with barely no problems.

Version 2.3.0.2160 of the intelata.mpd & intelvsd.vxd driver files should
only be used on desktop PCs w/out Nero 6.x software and should NOT be used
on any laptop/notebook computers as they can cause undesirable side effects
on laptops. If you're going to use IAA on laptop PCs, use version 2.22 and
avoid v2.3.

BTW/FYI: Intel Application Accelerator replaces/supersedes the Intel Ultra
ATA Storage Driver Software.

I take this back; IAA 2.22 also causes "Unspecified target error" messages
while formatting or reformatting a cd-rewritable disc or when burning a CD
in Nero 6.x, although the problem happens a little less than with IAA 2.3.
So I had removed IAA of my WinME computer and used the MS PCI IDE
drivers which made the "Unspecified target error" messages go away for
good in Nero 6.

IAA and Nero 6.x do NOT mix. It's like trying to mix apples and oranges.
IAA and Nero 6.x just dont get along!

BTW - the MS PCI IDE drivers in XP can identify the exact name/model of the HD.

And NO LLXX! IAA's EIDE driver will NEVER work on non-Intel EIDE controllers
like VIA, SIS or ALi. IAA is for purely based Intel EIDE chips only. Just like
attempting to mix apples and oranges. Does NOT make any sense at all.

This post has been edited by erpdude8: 13 February 2006 - 08:48 AM

[erpdude8]

OK. I've checked this Intel support site about IAA and CD-RW drives:
http://support.intel.com/support/chipsets/...b/cs-009284.htm

if there are problems using CD-RW drives with CD burning software like Roxio EZ CD Creator or Nero Burning ROM try lowering the "transfer mode limit" setting in the IAA program to DMA MW-2 or PIO-4 instead of using the default UDMA-2 setting for the CD-Rewritable drive. I know updating the motherboard BIOS, the CD-RW's Firmware, drivers and the CD burning software did not work on my WinME machine as I still got those "unspecified target errors" in Nero after installing IAA. I'll try changing the cd-rw drive's DMA setting to see if that will work.

More support info about IAA here:
http://support.intel...t/chipsets/iaa/

[erpdude8]

erpdude8, on Mar 4 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

OK. I've checked this Intel support site about IAA and CD-RW drives:
http://support.intel.com/support/chipsets/...b/cs-009284.htm

if there are problems using CD-RW drives with CD burning software like Roxio EZ CD Creator or Nero Burning ROM try lowering the "transfer mode limit" setting in the IAA program to DMA MW-2 or PIO-4 instead of using the default UDMA-2 setting for the CD-Rewritable drive. I know updating the motherboard BIOS, the CD-RW's Firmware, drivers and the CD burning software did not work on my WinME machine as I still got those "unspecified target errors" in Nero after installing IAA. I'll try changing the cd-rw drive's DMA setting to see if that will work.

More support info about IAA here:
http://support.intel...t/chipsets/iaa/

Tried lowering the DMA transfer mode limit in Intel Application Accelerator and I still get the "Unspecified Target Error" message in Nero 6.6.1.4. Nero 6.x just does not work well with IAA, so I'm now removing IAA off my computer and will revert back to using the MS EIDE drivers. frustrating that Intel says at their support site that the IAA drivers are not the problem but I have experienced problems. well, the IAA IDE drivers are causing Nero Burning Rom 6.x to malfunction so it IS the IAA drivers that are the problem to Nero and updating the Nero software did NOT resolve the "Unspecified Target Error" problem.

This post has been edited by erpdude8: 06 March 2006 - 10:43 AM

[erpdude8]

And ANOTHER reason why Intel Application Accelerator should not be used on any Windows machine with Nero 6 software, users will NEVER be able to achieve maximum write speed with their CD/DVD burners as noted here:
http://ww2.nero.com/...s_Hardware.html

Nero support suggests un-installing IAA and installing the latest IDE controller drivers (or just stick with the built-in IDE drivers provided by Windows).

[Old_Timer]

I also installed Service Pack 2, the newer version and upon reboot, my registry checker kicked in and reverted to an older version of the registry. Now it boots and gets to where the desktop should appear and it gives me a message that kernel could not be loaded and it tells me that I must re-install Windows! Thank God it's my backup computer. I was able to slave that hard drive to my Dell and get my important files off of it. I cannot even get into safe mode. I tried to reinstall Windows from my cabs folder through Dos and it gets to the point that it says that it cannot install Windows 98 onto my computer because a newer version of windows has been found! Well, it looks as though I get to pop the harddrive back into my Dell and format it, then buy myself a 98se full install disk and go from there. This computer is running Xp which is okay, but the crashed system is only an old 633 Celeron with 256K of Ram and I believe XP would bring it to her knees so that's why I left that one on 98. Oh well, crap happens!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Old_Timer: 29 March 2006 - 09:37 AM

[bristols]

[quote name='Petr' date='05 February 2006 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1139131550' post='459635']
[quote]
[url="http://support.intel.com/support/chipsets/iaa/sb/cs-001410.htm"]http://support.intel.com/support/chipsets/...b/cs-001410.htm[/url]
[quote]The Intel® Application Accelerator will not work with the following Intel® chipsets:

* Intel® 440BX chipset
* Intel® 440LX chipset
* Intel® 440EX chipset
* Intel® 440GX chipset
* Intel® 440FX chipset
* Intel® 430FX chipset
* Intel® 430VX chipset
* Intel® 430HX chipset
* Intel® 430TX chipset[/quote]
This is really interesting. The installer really refuses to install IAA2.3 on these systems, but the driver itself recognizes PIIX, PIIX3, PIIX southbridges and what's real surprise, IAA2.3 package contains hidden INF file for these chipsets:
[/quote]

(Apologies to those who object to the revival of old threads; and for going off-topic here. It seems like a good place to post this, but I will start another thread in another forum is asked to do so.)

So, I want to install Intel Application Accelerator 2x on a laptop with a 440BX chipset (one of those officially unsupported), using the hidden INF discovered by Petr (above). The OS I'm using on this laptop right now is Windows 2000 (again, sorry for the off-topic - although I plan also to try it on a 98SE2ME installation).

I unpacked the installer using 7-zip, then used Snoopy's Winpack (mentioned by erpdude8 above) to extract files from the installer's CABs (including the hidden INF, which I then renamed to INTELATA.INF). The driver files for NT+ I could find were INTELATA.SYS, IDECHNDR.SYS, IDEBUSDR.SYS, and IPRTCNST.DLL, and IATAENU.DLL. I tried using the Driver Update wizard to install the extracted driver. The renamed INTELATA.INF was used, but a required file could not be found - IATA2000.DLL. I couldn't find this file in the installer.

Does anyone know whether this file is created by the installer during the installation process? If so, could you tell me how to create it without running the installer (and any other required files, for that matter)?

I tried a conventional installer-based install, but as Petr said above, it refuses. Does anyone know how to remove the check(s) that prevent the installation?

This post has been edited by bristols: 05 April 2010 - 03:25 PM