another "Please suggest hardware for budget build" thread

[E-66]

Thanks for the info, jcarle!

Question - how are Tom's Hardware's product comparisons viewed here? I mean what do people think of them? This may be old news to other people but I just found it, it's his CPU comparison page. You can select 2 different CPUs and then compare them to each other with a variety of different benchmarks.

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html

Spent about an hour there last night comparing 3-4 CPUs I've had in mind, found it pretty informative.

[bonestonne]

i don't use his comparison guide, but i have looked into some of his BIOS tweaks and i've really sat down and read 18-30 pages about processor technology, and how its evolved.

the guys a really smart person when it comes to computers, must have a lot more free time than i have [and if you knew my hobbies you'd think i have too much]

in my sig the link about the Xeon processors is there...i have a server board that i'm going to get running soon from 1997-8 that runs a pair of Pentium II Xeon processors. now they don't seem like much, but its the first dual processor setup i'll ever get running alone. i don't consider myself a guru or a real smarty when it comes to computers, but i've found my ways around.

"the best way to learn about computers is to just fart around with them until you figure out what you're doing"

[E-66]

"the best way to learn about computers is to just fart around with them until you figure out what you're doing"

I've been doing just that since 1996! My first bold PC move: really wanting to try out "this new Windows 95 thing" and trying to figure out how to get rid of DOS & Win 3.1 off the second hand PC I picked up. "Hmm, 'deltree,' that looks like the right command"......

[puntoMX]

Just my 2 cents:

- AMD Sempron64 AM2 CPU

- AM2 motherboard with nVidia 6100/6150 chipset

But that´s ONLY when you want a 32bit OS. It will not work well with Windows 98 because of the 16 bit code.

For the S775 upgrade question: Look at it like this, when you upgrade your CPU, you will upgrade your motherboard and your RAM too like you are doing now. The motherboard jcarle advices runs only 1066MHz FSB and there for less suitable for future upgrades as the newer Core2Duos will have higher bus speeds then 1066MHz.

Other thought are: If you continue running 16 bit apps then you have nothing on AMD, then you are stuck with iNTEL CPU´s. I would drop Windows 98 and go for the AMD Sempron64 AM2 with a motherboard from ASUS.

Just make your pick…

[E-66]

- AMD Sempron64 AM2 CPU

- AM2 motherboard with nVidia 6100/6150 chipset

But that´s ONLY when you want a 32bit OS. It will not work well with Windows 98 because of the 16 bit code.

I am leaning towards just running XP alone on the new system and not dual-booting, but could you explain your last statement in more detail please? Do you mean that nVidia chipsets won't work well with Win98? What about an ASUS board with a VIA or ATI chipset?

[bonestonne]

its not the graphics, its the 16bit process handling. graphically it would be equal. but in terms of processing, it would be a ton harder, AMDs are meant for 32 bit and up, windows 98 doesn't really fit that bill.

[jcarle]

Thanks for the info, jcarle!

My pleasure. Glad it helps.

Question - how are Tom's Hardware's product comparisons viewed here? I mean what do people think of them? This may be old news to other people but I just found it, it's his CPU comparison page. You can select 2 different CPUs and then compare them to each other with a variety of different benchmarks.

You just have to pay attention to which benchmark you're looking at. Some benchmarks don't really focus entirely on the CPU and the difference in performance can be attributed to the difference in the platforms. For example, AMDs often run higher scores in games because of the integrated memory controller... except that it takes away from the benchmark of the actual CPU. Yes, the memory controller is part of the CPU but you're talking about a reduction in memory latency and NOT an increase in raw processor power. But if you select a different benchmark which is completely reliant on the CPU, such as DivX encoding or RAR compression, it's a whole different story.

For the S775 upgrade question: Look at it like this, when you upgrade your CPU, you will upgrade your motherboard and your RAM too like you are doing now. The motherboard jcarle advices runs only 1066MHz FSB and there for less suitable for future upgrades as the newer Core2Duos will have higher bus speeds then 1066MHz.

First, EVERY SINGLE INTEL CPU that is on the market NOW runs at 533MHz, 800Mhz or 1066MHz FSB. Future Core2s will continue to run at 1066MHz. So your statement is flawed.

Second, there are three new processors (The E6650, E6750 and E6850) which WILL run at 1333 FSB, but that won't be launched officially until Q1 of 2007, maybe even Q2. So before motherboards become available for them AND the processors become available on the retail market AND prices come down to affordable levels, we're looking towards at LEAST Q4 2007, if not Q1/Q2 2008.

So is the fact that future processors will run at 1333MHz FSB relevant? No more then the fact that one day we'll be using DDR3 and SATA3 and USB3. You can't future proof against everything, there's ALWAYS going to be a new technology around the corner. And plus, is there really a relevance between going from 1066MHz FSB to 1333MHz FSB when E-66 is used to an old Athlon Thunderbird 1GHz? Nope.

It's a question of balance, and I'm sure anyone who is able to be objective can see I struck a good balance between price, performance and upgradeability with the motherboard I suggested.

[E-66]

You just have to pay attention to which benchmark you're looking at.

You're absolutely right, and I noticed that last night when I spent an hour comparing the CPUs. I have a question about the CPU you picked, however. I certainly don't mean any offense to you since you really seem to know your stuff with regard to Intel, but I tried to pick benchmarks that reflected how I use my PC and in everyone one I chose the AMD CPU won. Celerons aren't even included in the CPUs to choose from, so in place of your Celeron D 331 Prescott 2.66GHz I chose a Pentium 4 531 Prescott 3.0GHz ($30 more). If the AMD CPU won out over the P4, I imagine it would win by an even wider margin over the Celeron.

So I'm still not quite sure what to do, CPU-wise. Spending a little extra on the CPU is no biggie, it's still well under $100. The chart says I should go for the AMD, but I don't want to dismiss anything you've said so far either.

Edited November 26, 2006 by E-66

[jcarle]

So I'm still not quite sure what to do, CPU-wise. Spending a little extra on the CPU is no biggie, it's still well under $100. The chart says I should go for the AMD, but I don't want to dismiss anything you've said so far either.

The hitch right now is that AMD is slashing all it's prices on CPUs because it knows that it's current line-up can't compete with Intel's Core 2 Duos. So dollar for dollar, it's hard to compare the two, but performance for performance there's a good difference.

Look at this chart for example. Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 running at 2.4GHz using DDR2-800 vs. AMD Athlon 64 X2 4600+ running at 2.4GHz using DDR2-800. Since the WinRAR test is mostly CPU based, Intel wins by a full 32 second margin. Even bigger margin in the XviD chart, which is also CPU based.

Thing is, the Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 is $308.00 while the AMD Athlon 64 X2 4600+ is $247.99.

The Core 2 performs better in a tit for tat comparison but you pay a bit more for that. Hence why I suggested the Core 2 motherboard, but a cheaper CPU to hold you over until the prices on Core 2s and such drop.

[E-66]

Ok, thanks jcarle, I'll give it some thought. I won't be ordering anything until December so I have time to think it over a bit yet.

Quick question about DVD burners & media. I added the Pioneer you recommended to my wish list on Newegg and looked through the others as well. The DVD burners are basically the same price as CD burners & combo drives, yet I still see recent reviews of both of them. Why would someone want one of them when a DVD burner takes the place of both of them and adds DVD burning to boot?

DVD media.... what kind should I get? Newegg seems to be equally stocked with DVD+R and DVD-R. I read about them on Wiki but still don't know which one I should favor. Thank god the DVD burners can read and write to either format, I can just see the confusion it would cause if someone had a +R burner but bought -R media and then couldn't get it to work.

[jcarle]

Quick question about DVD burners & media. I added the Pioneer you recommended to my wish list on Newegg and looked through the others as well. The DVD burners are basically the same price as CD burners & combo drives, yet I still see recent reviews of both of them. Why would someone want one of them when a DVD burner takes the place of both of them and adds DVD burning to boot?

Sometimes people cannot be understood. I don't see the point either, I don't think there's many people on this forum that see the point of buying a DVD combo drive when you can get a DVD burner for the same price.

DVD media.... what kind should I get? Newegg seems to be equally stocked with DVD+R and DVD-R. I read about them on Wiki but still don't know which one I should favor. Thank god the DVD burners can read and write to either format, I can just see the confusion it would cause if someone had a +R burner but bought -R media and then couldn't get it to work.

Depends on what you want. For the highest compatibility with older dvd players and the highest quality, Verbatim DVD-R (Single or Dual Layer). For a higher maximum burn speed and high quality but less compatibility with older dvd players, Verbatim DVR+R (Single or Dual Layer). If quality doesn't matter, then any other brand which strikes your fancy.

[ripken204]

the verbatim + or - dvds from newegg are the best imo, 100 packs are nice. i dont think ive ever had a coaster with a single one out of 200 dvds.

[puntoMX]

First, EVERY SINGLE INTEL CPU that is on the market NOW runs at 533MHz, 800Mhz or 1066MHz FSB. Future Core2s will continue to run at 1066MHz. So your statement is flawed. Not even the long text your always typing gives the readers enough information about that. I know, I keep my posts short because if people want to know something they will ask.

We were talking about future upgrades so why would it be flawed in your eyes?

Second, there are three new processors (The E6650, E6750 and E6850) which WILL run at 1333 FSB, but that won't be launched officially until Q1 of 2007, maybe even Q2. So before motherboards become available for them AND the processors become available on the retail market AND prices come down to affordable levels, we're looking towards at LEAST Q4 2007, if not Q1/Q2 2008.

There you go, so you know were you talking about. Why sell the man an old outdated model of the P4 series?

So is the fact that future processors will run at 1333MHz FSB relevant? No more then the fact that one day we'll be using DDR3 and SATA3 and USB3. You can't future proof against everything, there's ALWAYS going to be a new technology around the corner. And plus, is there really a relevance between going from 1066MHz FSB to 1333MHz FSB when E-66 is used to an old Athlon Thunderbird 1GHz? Nope.

You started with your argument of upgrading S775. You know as well that upgrading is just a bad stated story of marketing.

It's a question of balance, and I'm sure anyone who is able to be objective can see I struck a good balance between price, performance and upgradeability with the motherboard I suggested.

I don’t think so, S775 is going to stay but the chipset will not be good enough to upgrade in 1 year or so, or you have to buy bottom line CPUs again.

@ E-66, It’s your choice but jcarle is pushing you with his sales talk here. I sell computers too but I never say that people will do best to buy the lowest model and then upgrade later. Upgrades are irrelevant and most of the time not interesting. With this the statement of jcarle breaks and in my humble opinion it would be better to go with AM2 and a Sempron. If you move a lot of work, run a lot of programs at the same time then you could take the X2 as an option, it would even fit in your budget. But remember that you only can go for an AMD when you don’t run win98 any more.

[E-66]

Thanks for your opinion. I haven't made a decision yet, still thinking things over. I've decided not to dual-boot with Win98. I'll have more than one PC, so I can leave 98 on this one I'm using now and use the new one for XP.

A new problem has popped up regarding using Ghost 2003 with a socket AM2 or 939 motherboard. I don't know if I should post about it in Hardware or Software.

Edited November 27, 2006 by E-66

[puntoMX]

Goed Idea not to run both OSes on one PC.

A problem with Ghost 2003? That should be chipset related so you can continue posting it here.

If that doesn´t solve your problem then you can Always post in Software as well .

Never used Ghost 2003, I´m using Acronis TrueImage for that.