[ALO]

Dear Folk,

I am new commer to MSFN. I am happy to get myself as a member of this group. I am in great miss information about buning CD. I have got some CD that containts more then 1GB Data. When I copy it to HDD then file size increase more then 1GB. If I burn CD to CD it has no problem. But how it is possible to store more then 1 or 1.5 GB data to a 650 or 700MB capasity CD . CD containt was WinXP customise OS, And another CD containt windows 2003. And another CD containts some Software that my friends gift me. Both were CD not DVD.

Can anybody help about this information.

Thanks
ALO

This post has been edited by ALO: 30 January 2007 - 09:36 PM

[ripken204]

you can use overburn in nero but that will gain you at max 100mb

[CoffeeFiend]

The max I've ever been able to overburn CDs is like 3 minutes worth or so (using any writer/any media combo), so more like 30MB extra tops. And sometimes it can be problematic with some drives, or with some not so high quality media. There's some larger CDs too, buy they tend to be hard to find (never found them locally anywhere I've lived), and they tend to be expensive too. Even combined with overburning, you're not going to get up to 1GB. If your original disc has 1GB worth of files, it's because it's been optimized (duplicate files are only there once) - you can do that too, using the right apps.

But if you really need more than 700MB worth of space, why not just use DVDs? Burners are around 30$, and the media is as cheap as CDs nowadays.

[gamehead200]

ALO, where did you get your Windows CD? Sounds like you have something called an All-In-One Windows XP CD with different versions of it on it.

[ALO]

gamehead200, on Jan 31 2007, 11:20 AM, said:

ALO, where did you get your Windows CD? Sounds like you have something called an All-In-One Windows XP CD with different versions of it on it.

Actually I found it from my friend. And he bought it from local market. No it is not One in All type Cd. It contain XP and Office XP togather.

[ALO]

crahak, on Jan 31 2007, 11:02 AM, said:

The max I've ever been able to overburn CDs is like 3 minutes worth or so (using any writer/any media combo), so more like 30MB extra tops. And sometimes it can be problematic with some drives, or with some not so high quality media. There's some larger CDs too, buy they tend to be hard to find (never found them locally anywhere I've lived), and they tend to be expensive too. Even combined with overburning, you're not going to get up to 1GB. If your original disc has 1GB worth of files, it's because it's been optimized (duplicate files are only there once) - you can do that too, using the right apps.

But if you really need more than 700MB worth of space, why not just use DVDs? Burners are around 30$, and the media is as cheap as CDs nowadays.

if there is possible to tie more then 1Gb in a 700MB CD then why DVD. I can use cd anywhere....where there is no DVD rom.
It is really imagine I found that three CDs from my friend.

[Zxian]

There are ways of making it seem like there are more than 700MB of files on a CD by writing duplicate files only once, but referring to them multiple times. When you go to look at the "size" of the CD or copy it to your hard drive, the duplicate files are referenced many times, increasing the apparent size of the disc. All the while, the data is still stored on 700MB of space.

DVDs are the way to go if you have more than 700MB. Not really any other ways of getting more space off a CD. Like crahak said - you run into various problems.

[Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa]

A great example is DVD shrink. Wit DVD shrink you can dramatically shrink the Video file ISO IMAGE file ( whatever file it is I forget ) and then you burn it you are able to fit the file on a single DVD. I have gotten a movie that was really 8Gigs on a 4Gig disc.

Generally they Encode the video and audio data and tell the program to compress the data as much as it can.

Then they make the ISO/IMAGE file and use another program to Shrink the ISO file.

Finally they use a burner program that is given the order to shrink the file as much as possible when burning.

In General they would

1.Encode/Compress and make it small as possible
2. Create ISO/IMAGE file and make it small as possible or at least the amount of disc space. Emulated run.
3. Then test burn with etc program to make sure the outcome is just as planed.

I have also seen a couple of 800MB files out there that burns on a disc.

There is also something called dummy space. Where they add a whole slew of blank data to take up the rest of the disc. A great example of this is when you use Emule and Emule starts downloading it puts a place holder of false space on your Hard Drive which is really blank space ( where you can see/hear anything that is in that blank space that is leftover.

I do not have the names of official programs but there must be alot of them flying around.

if there is possible to tie more then 1Gb in a 700MB CD then why DVD?

The thing is it is more cheaper to use DVD at 4gigs and in terms of what you are storing it would be easier to store safely.

However with a CD you can seperate the data and in case one CD breaks you will still have the other.
Also the only reason for the size increase at times was to avoid the above as with PSX games that have a extra 100MB which is barely the need for a second disc or VCD movies which would be a real pain having to switch discs.

Also people are stupid at times and might damage the CD where the data could be lost easy

This post has been edited by Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa: 04 February 2007 - 09:54 PM

[jaclaz]

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa said:

A great example is DVD shrink.

A great example of what?

Please don't mix different things, one thing is lossy data compression, another one is lossless data compression, and yet another is making iso's with "duplicate once settings", either in CDIMAGE/OSCDIMG.EXE or mkisofs, which is obviously the case of this CD, otherwise, how would it "grow" in size when put on another filesystem:

Quote

When I copy it to HDD then file size increase more then 1GB.

but that can be copied directly:

Quote

If I burn CD to CD it has no problem.

on a normal CD?


And "sparse" or "growing" files like the emule example is yet another one.....

jaclaz

[phkninja]

Ludwig~ You are confused about what DVD Shrink actually does. It takes the DVD data and re-encodes the data. In the re-encoding processw they remove some of the original data from the stream (data not seen or heard buy us). It is similar to the process of converting to DivX or XviD only the information is re-encoded as an MPEG2 file rather than an MPEG4 file. This is called lossy compression (as refered to by Jaclaz)

Secondly from what most of us can gather the information on the disk is stored on the cd optimised e.g. All duplicate files are remnoved and one version is referenced by all occurances of it in the data track.

Also for your own refernce, you say you have seen 800MB written to a cd. There are in fact 3 types of burnable cd
650MB, 700MB and 800MB. 650MB and 700MB are the ones most people use (700MB are more normal now), 800MB exist but only work in a few CD recorders and require Nero to "Overburn" onto the cd (as the 800MB CD is not a proper standard). Although the cd can take 800MB overburn is needed because most software only works with standard formats (650MB and 700MB)

This post has been edited by phkninja: 05 February 2007 - 03:35 AM

[sleepydvdr]

I have a stack of 850 MB blank CDs right in front of me. You do need to configure Nero to overburn and need a burner capable of doing so. So, I know for a fact that 850 MB is possible (I have done it). I have also read in the past that 1 GB CDs were actually made and worked (although I never got any). The max I ever heard of is 1.2 GB, but I never followed up to see if they ever made it to the market.

My guess is that the data was compressed and you uncompressed it right off the CD. How did you get these files to your HD, exactly? Was it just copy & paste or did it run through some kind of extracting program?

Another possibility is the chunk size your hard drive is formatted with. Smaller chunk sizes make files take up more disk space. But I don't know if it could double the size, though. It might be possible, but I'm not sure. To test this, try extracting the contents of this CD on a few other computers and see if you get dramatically different results or roughly the same.

Final thought: since this is Win XP and Office, are you talking about after installing XP and Office, your used hard drive space taking up 1 to 1.5 GB? If that's what you are talking about, it's because of the installation files being compressed and system restore being bloated.

I got to admit I'm interested to see what's going on with this disc. Always hoping to run into some sort of "magic". I doubt it, though. Can open the disc and take a screenshot and post it?

[jaclaz]

sleepydvdr said:

I got to admit I'm interested to see what's going on with this disc. Always hoping to run into some sort of "magic".

The "particular" CD's hat apparently have more than 800 (or 850, and there are even, very rare, 900 Mb ones) use a technique that is only possible if the SAME files are in several different directories.

As said, CDIMAGE/OSCDIMG.EXE or mkisofs can make such disks, nothing really "magic":
http://www.msfn.org/...showtopic=49821

jaclaz

[phkninja]

Update on above I have seen one manufacturer who makes 900MB Blank disks.They seem to be the same physical size as an 800MB or 700MB cd, so im wondering where the extra 100MB is coming from.
it appears that the tracks have less space between them so they get more on the media.

This post has been edited by phkninja: 21 February 2007 - 07:44 AM

[Jeremy]

I really don't see why you don't just go out and buy yourself a DVD Burner and 50-pack spindle...

This post has been edited by Jeremy: 21 February 2007 - 08:05 AM

[Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa]

One reason is that I want to be able to use a medium that I can use in almost any PC out there and the other is so that I can mess around with VCD and writing games. Also most PC games out there have CD versions of the same game.

CD is the main disc storage unless you want to go back to double sided laser disc. No in fact Lser discs are still the main meduim but since CD is in high production so why not?

Quote

Julius Ceaser
Divide and conquer

By spliting our data into more pieces we are able to protect the data rather then protecting some Blessed disc mounted on the wall fo everybody to see.

Another great thing about a CD it is that easy to copy then any video cassette tape meduim out there. If musicans and movie makers really wanted to roll in the doh they should go back to tape.

This post has been edited by Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa: 21 February 2007 - 08:44 AM

[phkninja]

Well using a cd over 800MB is not the way to go either as drives dont have to support anything over the 800MB standard. If you want it to definateluy run on machine then your stuck to 800MB.

BTW.
Tape is lower quality, harder to copy protect and a pain to use. Trust me im an engineer and with tape medium or cd is the same difficulty for me to copy, but cd is less hasstle to carry the same data and doesnt get damage every time you put it in the machine to read (tape gets stretched by the machine and also gets ruffled the more you use it. And being a magnetic storage device it picks up metallic junk)

[Jeremy]

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

One reason is that I want to be able to use a medium that I can use in almost any PC out there and the other is so that I can mess around with VCD

I don't "mess around" with "VCDs", I burn DVDs... meaning I don't waste media until the product to be burnt is finalized. This can be done by saving the project to ISO and mounting it to a virtual drive with Daemon Tools.

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

...and writing games. Also most PC games out there have CD versions of the same game.

True, which I can't stand. I hate having insert CD1, 2, 3, 4, then 1 again before setup is finished and then have to keep CD1 in the drive just to play the game. I don't even bother making a DVD from the setup files, which usually just requires moving all the CAB or PAK files to the same folder and editing an INI or .MSI file with Orca. I install the game, patch it if necessary, then back it up with any needed registry keys to an ISO which I burn. If I want to play that game far into the future, I just extract it from the backup. It doesn't get any easier than that.

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

CD is the main disc storage unless you want to go back to double sided laser disc. No in fact Lser discs are still the main meduim but since CD is in high production so why not?

I've never seen anyone backup files to a laser disc. I've only seen a laser disc once in my life and it was in Grade 7 during a class presentation. It contained still images which were poor quality. I've been using CD-Rs since I was 15 and DVD+/-Rs since I was 16. You sound like you're living in the past. DVD storage is by no means whatsoever "new".

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

By spliting our data into more pieces we are able to protect the data rather then protecting some Blessed disc mounted on the wall fo everybody to see.

Have you not heard of password protected archives or encryption, or just keep your belongings close by you at all times when travelling? My personal files do not hang on the wall, they sit inside a binder which is near me at all times.

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

Another great thing about a CD it is that easy to copy then any video cassette tape meduim out there. If musicans and movie makers really wanted to roll in the doh they should go back to tape.

Not so much, no.

[eidenk]

ALO, on Jan 30 2007, 09:25 PM, said:

Dear Folk,

I am new commer to MSFN. I am happy to get myself as a member of this group. I am in great miss information about buning CD. I have got some CD that containts more then 1GB Data. When I copy it to HDD then file size increase more then 1GB. If I burn CD to CD it has no problem. But how it is possible to store more then 1 or 1.5 GB data to a 650 or 700MB capasity CD . CD containt was WinXP customise OS, And another CD containt windows 2003. And another CD containts some Software that my friends gift me. Both were CD not DVD.

Can anybody help about this information.

Thanks
ALO

Data on CD is stored contiguously, ie, without empty gaps. Fill a 700MB CD with 1kb files. Then copy that to HDD with a cluster size of 32kb and see how much disk space it occupies. 32 x 700MB or 22GB but in fact there will only be 700MB of data. All the rest is lost.

This issue has nothing to see with overburning IMO or mode 2 CD or whatever of that sort but everything with the fact that there cannot be 2 files on the same cluster on HDD (at least on FAT32 dunno for NTFS).

On CDs no space is lost, on HDD the space occupied by a file will be a multiple of the cluster size. If a file is the size of one cluster + 1 bit, it will occupy two clusters.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[CoffeeFiend]

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

CD is the main disc storage unless you want to go back to double sided laser disc. No in fact Lser discs are still the main meduim but since CD is in high production so why not?

I'm significantly older than Jeremy, and I've NEVER seen a single laserdisc of my whole life. Saying it's the main medium is just ludicrous. And these days, DVD sales outnumber CD sales in many (most?) places, and the trend continutes. I don't have any old CD/CD-RW drive anymore (haven't had one for 2 or 3 years now) - just like floppies. DVD media basically costs the same, but holds like 6x more stuff. Both types of drives are pretty much at the same price point (dirt cheap).

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

Another great thing about a CD it is that easy to copy then any video cassette tape meduim out there.

Yeah, like putting a cassette in the other deck, hitting record on the blank tape side and play on the other is hard... Or just plugging the line out to a sound card. It's equally trivial to copy. I guess the only hard part about copying blank tapes is finding somewhere that still carries blank tapes - protection by obsolescence! Just like gramophone recordings would be "harder" to copy because nobody sells blank wax cylinders.

Ludwig Von Cookie Koopa, on Feb 21 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

If musicans and movie makers really wanted to roll in the doh they should go back to tape.

You forgot about 78rpm records, 8 track tapes, and 8mm film reels for movies.

It's the age of high quality digital audio/video, multichannel/surround sound, digital players (computers, portable mp3/video players, consoles, etc), PVRs, HTPCs and everything HDTV.

So basically you're saying they should back 20 years+ in technology, and offer low quality analog stuff, on olde crappy tape media that degrades significantly over time, costs more to produce, takes more space, and won't play on most devices where we take it for granted by now? Perhaps the plan is to make more money by alienating their paying customers by providing them with useless low quality crap that belongs in a museum? Perhaps we should buy walkmans again to replace our nice and expensive mp3 players, and carry along hundreds of tapes if we want some selection? Or we just all have to bother with doing an analog capture off junk tape media and then reencode it to have mp3s?

Yeah, I'm sure that would go over real well! That's like the ultimate, very best ever thing they could do to kill their sales altogether, and have all P2P traffic increase 10 fold overnight.

[phkninja]

if you were right then an installer of 32mb removed from a cd would take up 1073741824 bytes on the had drive with a cluster size of 32kb (so it would be 1GB or 1024MB of data on had drive space). How come then it always copies as 32mb?

The actual reason has been explained numerous times. Firstly there are different sizes of cd media, and secondly most cd's that are extracted and take up 1.5GB are usually those with duplicate files on the cd which are referenced rather than copied to the cd twice. Like in a file archiver, you dont want to copy the same data twice when you compress it so the compression scheme makes a code word for the first occasion and uses this codeword to reference the next occurance.