[jaclaz]

spacesurfer said:

What else do you know about BCD file?

Not much, basically because at the moment I won't touch Vista with anything but a 10 feet pole , but two things might interest you or other members:
1. BCD is a Registry hive:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=19439
2. Nuno Brito is working on a tool to read and write Registry hives:
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=1703
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=1839

I am trying to put together in the first thread every reference I can find on Registry hives, if anyone has some more info/links, he is welcome to join us in the "game".

jaclaz

[spacesurfer]

Vista isn't so bad. It's buggy, though. The the bugs are annoying. MS released it too soon.

[JimDandy]

With my minimal knowledge, I can't tell from reading your instructions if this will work on a machine currently using just Vista (in other words, not dual-booting with XP). I'm wondering if I can get the Wubi Ubuntu installer to work by using your method, but I don't want the extra hassle of installing XP, in addition (insert cracks about XP being superior here). Maybe using WinPE or similar to edit the Vista files? Thanks for this tutorial.

This post has been edited by JimDandy: 03 May 2007 - 08:04 PM

[jaclaz]

Quote

Maybe using WinPE or similar to edit the Vista files?

Since all you have to do is copying/renaming some files, most probably even a floppy with NTFS4DOS would be enough:

jaclaz

[spacesurfer]

JimDandy, on May 3 2007, 08:03 PM, said:

With my minimal knowledge, I can't tell from reading your instructions if this will work on a machine currently using just Vista (in other words, not dual-booting with XP). I'm wondering if I can get the Wubi Ubuntu installer to work by using your method....

Of course it will work without WinXP. Grub is not for dual booting just Vista and XP. It's for booting anything that is supported by Grub. That means you can boot whatever from floppy, whatever from CD, OS's supported by Grub (win98, xp, vista, etc).

So, you don't have to install XP. As long as Wubi Ubuntu is supported, you can boot it with Grub (without Vista or XP). I'm unfamiliar with the syntax for booting it so you'll have to research to find out what syntax goes in your menu.lst file.

[JimDandy]

So, just to be clear, there's nothing special about already having a dual-boot system that is required. It's just a way of accessing the necessary files in Vista? Thanks.

Oops, I missed the last post. Think my question is answered. Thanks.

This post has been edited by JimDandy: 04 May 2007 - 07:46 AM

[spacesurfer]

Also, let me mention that when you download Grub, there's a sample menu.lst file that gives you examples of how to boot various OS's like Mandrake...

[JimDandy]

Thanks for that tip. I think if I install Wubi it'll create the appropriate grub entry for me to copy, and then it'll just be a matter of following your directions to get it to work. When I get a chance to try this out, I'll report back.

[jaclaz]

Just for the record, and trying to limit the confusion, everything in this thread is referred to grub4dos, not grub.

Grub4dos is a "fork" / "evolution" of grub that adds a number of features to standard "grub" and (at the moment at least) misses some other features of the original.

While the two projects are close relatives (and actually grub4dos is derived from grub), and the syntax and overall way of working is VERY similar, some commands and features present in grub4dos (mostly those related to booting DOS, Windows 9x/Me, NT/2k/XP/2003 and Vista) are COMPLETELY missing in grub, while some of the advanced features of grub, like variables handling aren't (yet) present in grub4dos.

Thus, the two programs are NOT completely interchangeable.

Grub4dos "Whereto" is here:
http://www.boot-land...hp?showtopic=14

jaclaz

[mangostan]

Hi there!

what also works out great:

install GRUB on the partition where Linux resides, e.g.
/dev/hda2
(if you installed Linux here).

so do not overwrite the MBR
- which for exemple is on
/dev/hda1
which in Windows, is known as c:/
- by the 'Linux GRUB'.

then
#update-grub

it will search for other operating systems, including the loader for Vista (which is: Grub4Dos) and put them automatically in the Linux GRUB menu.

now if you start your pc it will start in Linux GRUB and show all boot options, including
'Windows Vista/Longhorn (loader)'

this is an easy, simple and elegant way to accomplish a dual boot system.

Have fun.

MANGOSTAN

[Eck]

Huh? Grub4Dos is not the Vista boot loader, but an alternative version of a boot loader that is Grub-like and is available for install by EasyBCD. Another program that uses it is the VistaLoader thing that we don't talk about (or use, unless for a temporary educational purpose experiment that you then get rid of when you're finished playing, along with that unlicenced version of Windows Vista).

I played with it too, but then again I also purchased 2 Vista Ultimate's Retail so I think I'm entitled to play around on a temporary basis.

Are you saying that simply typing the command for Grub to update will install Grub4Dos? I thought that was made by a separate 3rd party project not even forked from Grub.

The Vista boot loader is specific to Microsoft Windows Vista, controlled by bcdedit or 3rd party utilities like EasyBCD or VistaBootPro, and does not bear any relation to Grub or Grub For Dos that I'm aware of.

So updating Grub is nice, but if it's not in the MBR then Vista will still be alone there unless you specifically download and install something that installs Grub4Dos, like EasyBCD or, well, Grub4Dos itself.

Grub4Dos is awesome though! It is a viable alternative boot loader for those that don't want to use the normal version of Grub.

OpenSuSE Linux installs a working Vista/Linux dual-boot automatically during installation that uses Grub, but with a cooler looking Grub menu screen. That's what I've mostly been using. Had some wacky problems with older Novell Kernel updates that needed manual fixing but that's been fixed in the latest Kernel update by updated Perl versions and scripts that do it automatically again. I can see Grub4Dos as valid for distro's that need more manual fixing to setup the dual-boot, but as of now OpenSuSE does it fine with it's use of Grub. Don't even need to go in and fix it anymore.

This post has been edited by Eck: 17 May 2007 - 05:46 PM

[mangostan]

Eck, on May 18 2007, 01:45 AM, said:

Are you saying that simply typing the command for Grub to update will install Grub4Dos? I thought that was made by a separate 3rd party project not even forked from Grub.

(snip)

So updating Grub is nice, but if it's not in the MBR then Vista will still be alone there unless you specifically download and install something that installs Grub4Dos, like EasyBCD or, well, Grub4Dos itself.

Grub4Dos is awesome though! It is a viable alternative boot loader for those that don't want to use the normal version of Grub.

(snip)

Thanks for the reply.

To clear things up a little bit.

No, '#update-grub' will not install Grub4Dos on /dev/hda1 a.k.a. c:/

What I tried to say was: basically there is no need to mess around with any bootloader on the Windows partition. Even stronger: the MBR can stay untouched.

All you need is Linux Grub and its command: update-grub. This will give you all available boot options for Linux + all options for other installed operating systems.

And it works like a charm :-)

MANGOSTAN

[spacesurfer]

Here's a great download for all: sbootmgr.dsk.

It allows you to boot from a CD-ROM, even if your BIOS does not support booting from CD-ROM.

It's a great tool for even those who CAN boot from CD-ROM because you can add it to a Grub menu. No more chaning your BIOS boot sequence or pressing F8 to boot from alternative devices.

Simply download the file, add it to the root of your OS, add the following code to menu.lst.

title Boot CD using Smart Boot Manager
find --set-root /sbootmgr.dsk
map --mem /sbootmgr.dsk (fd0)
map --hook
chainloader (fd0)+1
rootnoverify (fd0)

[Eck]

But, mangostan, if you're installing Grub to the Linux partition, whether on the same hard drive or not, how will the Windows installed MBR, which is what continues to boot your pc no matter what is listed in Grub when it's not in the MBR, know how to boot anything but Windows? Something within the MBR must start the Grub that's installed on the Linux boot sector.

I still don't understand exactly what you mean, perhaps?

Some folks use Grloader, Grub4Dos, or EasyBCD which can write a chainloader into the Vista boot loader, to boot to the Grub on the Linux partition which you then can use it's menu to select things but in that case you basically want to just boot to Linux.

Other (most) just let Grub install into the MBR by the distro default setup program and in most cases these days it will detect Windows and create the section in menu.lst to boot Windows and mount the Windows partition for access within Linux.

I've found that I've had a hard time getting rid of Grub manually. Actually the only way I have was by wiping everything and installing Windows fresh. Vista's repair, using YaST to reinstall the original MBR, telling it to install into the Linux partition, running fdisk /mbr from a 98 Startup Disc, running Vista boot repair, running the command to reinstall NT6 from the Vista DVD have all failed to get rid of Grub. The XP cd wouldn't let me into the recovery console as neither my password nor no password would be accepted once Vista was on there.

So that's annoying to me. I hate anything without an off switch. One time I left Linux on there and reinstalled Windows. Booting with the SuSE DVD and choosing to start the installed Linux, then trying to get Grub within YaST to reinstall itself also failed for me. I needed to totally wipe and reinstall Linux to get back Grub into the MBR.

It's probably my not being familiar with command line stuff and trying to use the provided YaST substitutes. If they're not working properly (as they weren't at the time after those early versions of the Novell Kernel updates) then I'm sunk. Maybe some of that stuff would work now, since they've fixed up the latest Kernel updates they're pushing through Online Update. But the recommended non-Linux methods to get rid of Grub still concern me as they just didn't work for me. Sometimes you just want to get rid of Grub without needing to reinstall Windows.

Grub is a really nice boot loader. But these are important issues the makers seem to think aren't so. Otherwise they wouldn't have made removing Grub such a mystery.

[Mikep7779]

Verry nice info, thanks.

[spacesurfer]

What remains to be seen, I think, is being able to add Windows PE 2.0 to Grub4Dos menu (running off HDD, of course). If anyone has accomplished this please let us know.

Using VPC 2007, I am going to experiment with WinPE 2.0 on second partition of first HDD and first partition of secondary HDD.

Will post my results here.

[iceangel89]

too bad i didn't see this earlier... i need to do a dual boot PC of Windows and linux for my school project on VPC. so what happened was... GRUB can't seem to load XP or Vista Directly. it loads the Vista boot loader then select the OS u want... and since i have 2 XP, in the Vista boot loader, they have an option for XP boot loader... so its like going thru 2 boot loaders b4 i can boot a XP.

My setup was:

• Windows XP Pro (nLited)
  
• Windows XP Pro (Full)
  
• Windows Vista
  
• Mandriva Linux

The Process of booting...

• Windows XP (Any) - GRUB > Windows Vista Boot Loader > Windows XP Boot Loader > Windows
  
• Windows Vista - GRUB > Vista Boot Loader > Vista
  
• Linux - GRUB > Linux

any reason why?

[jaclaz]

iceangel89 said:

GRUB can't seem to load XP or Vista Directly.

AGAIN, Grub cannot chainload directly XP, grub4dos can:
http://grub4dos.jot.com/WikiHome

Alternatively to the method illustrated here, it is possible to insert grub4dos inside Vista bootmanager,

grub4dos README said:

******************************************************************************
*** Loading GRUB4DOS in Windows Vista ***
******************************************************************************

First, you should copy GRLDR.MBR to C:\, and use the following commands:

bcdedit /create /d "Boot Manager" /application bootsector
bcdedit /set {id} device boot
bcdedit /set {id} path \grldr.mbr
bcdedit /displayorder {id} /addlast

Then copy GRLDR and menu.lst to the root directory of any FAT16/FAT32/EXT2/NTFS
partition.

Notice: These commands need elevated privileges, they should be used inside
cmd.exe which is started with "Run as administrator".

or to chainload the Vista Bootsector.

All the above is related to grub4dos, NOT grub.

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: 29 May 2007 - 02:27 AM

[spacesurfer]

I've finally succeeded in adding Windows PE 2.0 to Grub4Dos menu in VPC 2007 environment.

Here's the link to instructions: Add Windows PE 2.0 to Grub4Dos Menu

This post has been edited by spacesurfer: 27 May 2007 - 09:19 AM

[spacesurfer]

Thanks, Jaclaz, for clarifying the difference between Grub and Grub4Dos. I have changed my original post to mention Grub4Dos.

I just wanted to add on to what you said about adding Grub4Dos to Vista's boot options menu, which is a great tip. I could not use that method, however, because my goal was to obtain Grub4Dos menu first - before Vista's boot options menu. If you add Grub4Dos to Vista's menu and make it the default with a timeout of 0, then you cannot load Vista because of a circular reference - meaning even if you add Vista to your menu.lst, it will keep loading Grub4Dos menu because it is the default!

Therefore, I had to rename the files. However, if you don't want Grub4Dos to be your first menu, then Jaclaz's method is a great alternative.